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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: kland]
#159581
12/24/13 07:19 PM
12/24/13 07:19 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,706
Canada
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"that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth".
Ellen White: "The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated,"
Green says the Bible, but Ellen White says "a translation". Did anyone else have "a translation"? Or were the Waldenses the first to have "a translation"? Did anyone else have a "manuscript in their native tongue"? Or were the Waldenses the first to have a "manuscript in their native tongue"? Did the version, the translation, the manuscript give them "the truth unadulterated"? Or did having any translation, any manuscript in their native tongue which they could read rather than listen to what others told them to think give them "the truth unadulterated"? The native language in Italy and many surrounding countries during the Roman Empire was Latin. The Bible was translated from original manuscripts into this Roman/Latin language at a very early date. Missionaries that were NOT Roman Catholic, but from the Asia Minor/Syrian area, carried this Bible all over Europe --Italy, France and Celtic England. (The English language did not exist in the first centuries AD) These Bibles were already widely distributed BEFORE Constantine's time. So yes, these Roman/Latin Bibles were probably the first translations into the common language of the people that didn't speak Greek. These Roman/latin bibles were not the same as the Latin Vulgate that Jerome translated. Jerome already had the corrupted Greek manuscripts ordered by Constantine. So yes, the Waldenses carefully preserved the "unadulterated" scriptures -- as did many further east who possessed the Received text of scripture. And of course -- having the scriptures was a huge protection against unbiblical theories that were being taught. That is also true.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: dedication]
#159583
12/24/13 08:45 PM
12/24/13 08:45 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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So yes, the Waldenses carefully preserved the "unadulterated" scriptures -- as did many further east who possessed the Received text of scripture.
And of course -- having the scriptures was a huge protection against unbiblical theories that were being taught. That is also true.
Please show that Ellen White meant to say, as you intend it to mean, that the Waldenses had the Bible unadulterated rather than what it reads at face value, the truth unadulterated.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: dedication]
#159601
12/25/13 08:11 AM
12/25/13 08:11 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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So yes, the Waldenses carefully preserved the "unadulterated" scriptures -- as did many further east who possessed the Received text of scripture.
And of course -- having the scriptures was a huge protection against unbiblical theories that were being taught. That is also true.
Please show that Ellen White meant to say, as you intend it to mean, that the Waldenses had the Bible unadulterated rather than what it reads at face value, the truth unadulterated. History itself shows that. You want "proof" quotes -- why not just look at history. How does one have "truth unadulterated"? The best way is to get the unadulterated message. And why would you defend the Catholic Bible? Again we need to look at the history. Why do you think the Catholic church was so opposed to the Protestant translations, and made her own translation from the Vulgate, to counter the Protestant translations? It wasn't the Catholic church who preserved the Bible, -- read in Revelation 12 where the true church was. These people "in the wilderness" had the Roman/Latin Bible (the Latin that was the language of the people in the west during the Roman Empire time). Those Bibles were translated from the received text years before Constantine came along. But what do you mean by this? This later became the authorized Bible of the Roman Catholic church. Isn't KJV the authorized version? The authorized version of scripture by the Roman Catholic Church is Jerome's Vulgate. It reigned supreme for 1000 years as the authoritative ROMAN CATHOLIC BIBLE. During the reformation time the Catholic Church did their own translation of an English Bible. The Definitive Roman Catholic Bible in English is the Douay-Rheims Bible. (came out in 1609) The Douay-Rheims Version of the Holy Bible, is a direct English translation of what is still the authoritative Bible of the Catholic Church - the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome (342-420). The Latin Vulgate was translated by Jerome AFTER Constantine issued his 50 manuscripts that combined material from the adulterated manuscripts with the Received Text. English translation of the Bible produced by the Commission appointed by James I, and in consequence often spoken of as "King James's Bible" came out in 1611, and is also AN Authorized Version. But who authorized it? Not the Catholic church it was the Anglican Church- or Church of England. It is in general use among English-speaking non-Catholics. Notice what the Catholic Church thinks of the Reformation Bibles -- During the progress of the Reformation a number of English versions appeared, translated for the most part not from the Vulgate, but from the original Hebrew and Greek. Of these the most famous were Tyndale's Bible (1525); Coverdale's Bible (1535); .. the Geneva Bible (1557-60); and the Bishop's Bible (1568). The art of printing being by this time known, copies of all these circulated freely among the people. That there was much good and patient work in them, none will deny; but they were marred by the perversion of many passages, due to the theological bias of the translators; and they were used on all sides to serve the cause of Protestantism.
In order to counteract the evil effects of these versions, the Catholics determined to produce one of their own. the Reims New Testament (1582) and the Douay Bible (1609-10). The translation was made from the Vulgate... They then speak of the KJV Version, but again point out it does not support Catholic doctrine. It is generally admitted that the Authorized Version (KJV) was in almost every respect a great improvement on any of its predecessors. So much was this the case that when Bishop Challoner made his revision of the Douay Bible (1749-52), which is now commonly in use among English-speaking Catholics, he did not scruple to borrow largely from it....However in the angel's salutation to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the words "highly favoured" being a very imperfect rendering of the original. In such cases, needless to say, Challoner adhered to the Douay. {Hail, full of grace,} -- Catholic Encyclopedia So even by Catholic admission -- They didn't want a Bible supporting PROTESTANT Theology, they wanted a Bible supporting Catholic theology.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: dedication]
#159603
12/25/13 03:06 PM
12/25/13 03:06 PM
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About 20 minutes into the video Veith speaks about the corruption of the Bible. Veith refers to a text showing the Apostle Paul's mentioning this. 2 Cor. 2:17 KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Daryl]
#159606
12/25/13 04:19 PM
12/25/13 04:19 PM
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Veith, 25 minutes into the video said that the RCC is basically Arian in their beliefs.
He stated that based this on the fact that the Vulgate is Arian and that the pope had declared the Vulgate infallible.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Daryl]
#159607
12/25/13 04:21 PM
12/25/13 04:21 PM
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Veith basically said that the Battle of the Bibles is in reality the continuing of the Battle about Jesus Christ.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Daryl]
#159608
12/25/13 04:34 PM
12/25/13 04:34 PM
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Veith stated at about the 30 minute mark in the video, that it isn't the KJV against the other versions of the Bible, but it is the Received Text manuscripts versus the other manuscripts.
It is, therefore, the Battle of the Manuscripts, which has resulted in the Battle of the Bibles in regards to those Bibles that use the other manuscripts over the Received Text manuscripts.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Daryl]
#159610
12/25/13 05:03 PM
12/25/13 05:03 PM
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The video has two parts.
Part 1 ended at 47:18 with Part 2 beginning at 47:23.
I found Part 1 full of interesting information.
Still need to watch Part 2.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: dedication]
#159640
12/27/13 02:12 PM
12/27/13 02:12 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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So yes, the Waldenses carefully preserved the "unadulterated" scriptures -- as did many further east who possessed the Received text of scripture.
And of course -- having the scriptures was a huge protection against unbiblical theories that were being taught. That is also true.
Please show that Ellen White meant to say, as you intend it to mean, that the Waldenses had the Bible unadulterated rather than what it reads at face value, the truth unadulterated. History itself shows that. You want "proof" quotes -- why not just look at history. My question was for you to show how Ellen White meant to say what you wanted her to say. Saying history shows us what Ellen White meant to say is like comparing "apples to grapefruit". And why would you defend the Catholic Bible?
I'm not sure I'm defending the "Catholic Bible". Apples to grapefruit.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Daryl]
#159641
12/27/13 02:15 PM
12/27/13 02:15 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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About 20 minutes into the video Veith speaks about the corruption of the Bible. Veith refers to a text showing the Apostle Paul's mentioning this. 2 Cor. 2:17 KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. Maybe you can help dedication out in a similar way. Can you show how when Paul speaks about "corrupt the word of God" means the versions of scriptures rather than what the people were saying the word of God meant?
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