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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159547
12/23/13 11:50 PM
12/23/13 11:50 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You have no way to answer this APL

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven."

"Lightning from heaven, as a token of God’s wrath, broke off the top of their tower, casting it to the ground. Thus God would show to rebellious man that He is supreme." {SR 73.2}

"These murmurings would soon have leavened the entire camp, had not the wrath of God in fire from Heaven flashed like lightning from the cloudy pillar and consumed those who were the instigators of the trouble. Yet this, instead of humbling them, seemed only to increase their murmurings. When Moses heard the people weeping in the door of their tents, and complaining throughout their families, he was greatly distressed. {ST August 12, 1880, par. 4}
Here Moses, himself, came very near distrusting the Lord.

Just like you APL.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159548
12/24/13 12:07 AM
12/24/13 12:07 AM
APL  Offline
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YOU have no way to understand this jsot.

Isaiah 33:14 KJV The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

jsot - you have no answer for GC 36???? None? Why not?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #159549
12/24/13 12:09 AM
12/24/13 12:09 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Do you know what "stand toward" is?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I'm sure there is a greenism for it. As you have said in the past, God destroys by Active Execution. Of course the EGW quote says that God is not the executioner.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159550
12/24/13 12:13 AM
12/24/13 12:13 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
APL you consistantly use and abuse those two texts from the Great controversy.

"but He [God] leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves".

What this is describing is the end of probation. At the end of probation the wicked turn on the righteous and assail them from every angle. They are just about to murder the chosen of God when He interveigns by destroying the wicked by lightning from heaven.

What you are quoting over and over has nothing to do with the execution of judgment.

The other quote you keep using "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" is to give us the image of seeing God with His arms open and full of love, not as an executioner.

It does not say that God does not execute justice, but that God is not to be viewed as an executioner because He has done all He can to save the wicked.



HA! What you are quoting over and over has nothing to do with the execution of judgment.

Really... What is the "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;" mean. What is the sentence against transgression? The Second Death! The Second Death is the wages of sin. This quote of EGW states, that God is not the executioner of the sentence. It goes on to explain how the sentence is carried out and what roll God plays. Sin pays its wage, death.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159551
12/24/13 12:43 AM
12/24/13 12:43 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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The wages of sin is death, and it is a self inflicted wound. But God is the rewarder.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159552
12/24/13 12:57 AM
12/24/13 12:57 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL


Really... What is the "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;" mean.?


In every quote that I have seen using that vernacular it is always in the context of full disclosure. God is righteous beyond anything else. He is the perfect Entity in all His encarnations. He is accused, so the evidence must be made evident, like the death of Jesus. Sin must be allowed to run it's course until when He prophesied. The whole universe will never want to sin again.

So the end of everything prophesied is coming very soon, and in the fulfillment will be the righteousness revealed to the whole world who will tear themselves to shreds or be fully submitted to the will of God.

The whole heavenly universe has seen the righteousness of God through His Son, the head of the serpent has beed bruised and like us they are just waiting for the end.

This is faith. To depend on the word of God. So when He says through His prophet...

Psalm 58;10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged,
when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 Then people will say,
“Surely the righteous still are rewarded;
surely there is a God who judges the earth.”

How do you explain this?

You do not understand the love involved in the death of the wicked, in God's wrath, His strange act; but only those who dwell in the righteousness of God could see that wouldn't you think?

This is touching on an area that cuts to the marrow of the truth.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159553
12/24/13 01:23 AM
12/24/13 01:23 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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The question is not if God is Love, He is. The question is not 'does God avenge' He does. The question is "can we see God's love through His wrath?"

If we can't then we have not seen God. He reveals Himself through His word, if every part of the word does not harmonize it is because your view is off. This is the word of the Lord. How do you throw away so many texts to support your own perception? How do you not see the harmony if you are in the Spirit?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159554
12/24/13 01:46 AM
12/24/13 01:46 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
The question is not if God is Love, He is. The question is not 'does God avenge' He does. The question is "can we see God's love through His wrath?"

If we can't then we have not seen God. He reveals Himself through His word, if every part of the word does not harmonize it is because your view is off. This is the word of the Lord. How do you throw away so many texts to support your own perception? How do you not see the harmony if you are in the Spirit?


How do you throw out all the text that do not harmonize with your preconceived ideas? I find harmony in scripture. EGW says, "God destroys no man." Green says He does. GC 36 says God is not an executioner. The Death of Christ answers the question of how God is involved in the death of sinners. What did Christ say? "My God, my God, why are you torturing me?" "My God, my God, why are you killing me?" "My God, my God, why are you burning me?". No. He said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus is the answer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159563
12/24/13 03:04 PM
12/24/13 03:04 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Jesus suffered the wrath of God like every unrepentant sinner in the second death correct? So what is the wrath of God, also called the indignation of God.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death, a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {CET 108.2}

The wrath of God will only be appeased by the second death, the eternal death of sinners, but that does not mean the second death is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is hatred against sin. Can God hate? Yes He can.

"The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man’s Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.3}
God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. {Con 20.1}

This next quote tells us what and how the wrath of God was felt by Jesus.

"Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father’s mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father’s reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.... {CSA 39.1}
He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.... {CSA 39.2}

For Jesus to carry the sin of the world brought the wrath of the Father on Jesus and seperated them. It was the anguish, agony and sorrow of GUILT that could not be taken away and broke His heart.

The wicked sweat blood just like Jesus at the second resurrection when their GUILT is exposed. They do not have the love of Christ in them. They receive the wrath unmixed with mercy.

This next quote tells us how the wrath of the Father is executed against unrepentant sinners...

"Dear children, live for God—live for heaven, so that when the wrath of God shall come upon the earth, Jesus may say to the destroying angel, Spare those... {AY 58.2}

“It was about the space of three hours after, when his wife (Saphira), not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much (no repentance or acknowledging of her guilt). Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out... Infinite Wisdom saw that this signal manifestation of the wrath of God was necessary to guard the young church from becoming demoralized. {AA 73.4}

Did Saphira die from God withdrawing His presence? Or was it God's Destroying angel?

"All around him the apostle beheld witnesses to the Flood that had deluged the earth because the inhabitants ventured to transgress the law of God. The rocks thrown up from the great deep and from the earth by the breaking forth of the waters, brought vividly to his mind the terrors of that awful outpouring of God’s wrath. In the voice of many waters—deep calling unto deep—the prophet heard the voice of the Creator. The sea, lashed to fury by the merciless winds, represented to him the wrath of an offended God.

"With unerring accuracy, the Infinite One still keeps an account with all nations. While His mercy is tendered, with calls to repentance, this account will remain open; but when the figures reach a certain amount which God has fixed, the ministry of His wrath commences. The account is closed. Divine patience ceases. There is no more pleading of mercy in their behalf.... {CET 186.2}
The crisis is fast approaching. The time for God’s visitation has about come. Although loth to punish, nevertheless He will punish, and that speedily. James 5:16. {CET 186.3}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159564
12/24/13 03:06 PM
12/24/13 03:06 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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APL, here is the answer to the quotes you keep using, how they fit together with all these other quotes that contradict your stance.

"Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God, or be cut down by the destroying weapons. Already a few drops of God’s wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

God does not stand towards sinners as their executioner because He has proven how we are to blame for our own actions.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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