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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159587
12/25/13 12:03 AM
12/25/13 12:03 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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What is the modern day 'mark of cain'?

"God, in His Word, has placed His stamp [of condemnation] upon the heresies of spiritualism as He placed His mark upon Cain. The godly need not be deceived if they are students of the Scriptures and obedient to follow the plain path marked out for them in the Word of God. {Con 90.1}

"God has given to every man his work; and if any one turns from the work that God has given him, to do the work of Satan, to defile his own body or lead another into sin, that man’s work is cursed, and the brand of Cain is placed upon him. The ruin of his victim will cry unto God, as did the blood of Abel (The Review and Herald, March 6, 1894). {1BC 1087.2}
Any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan, to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe he bears the mark of Cain (Manuscript 29, 1911). {1BC 1087.3}

"God is everywhere. He sees, he knows all things, and understands the intents and purposes of the heart. It is in vain that an attempt should be made to conceal sin from his notice. He saw our first parents in Eden. He saw Cain when he raised his hand to kill Abel. He saw the sins of the inhabitants of the old world, and numbered their days and punished them with a flood. He saw the sins of his own covenant people, the Jews, when they plotted against the life of the Son of God. As surely does he mark every transgression, and every secret thing will be brought into Judgment. They may be hid from mortal man, they may be hid from the good, the pure, and the holy, from friends and from foes, yet God sees them. All sins will be revealed in the day of Judgment, and unless they have been repented of beforehand, they will receive punishment according to their magnitude: for a record of all the deeds of men is kept in the book of God’s remembrance. All the good actions, all the evil actions of life are recorded. The fact that the accumulated sins are treasured up and at last exposed, is a terrible fact. And why those professing to be sons and daughters of God venture in the face of light, in the face of knowledge, to sin against their own conscience and by their sin involve others in the same ruin, is a mystery. Have they ever tasted of the powers of the world to come? Have they ever enjoyed sweet communion with God? Then how can they turn to sensual, condemning, soul-degrading practices? {RH May 24, 1887, par. 6}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159588
12/25/13 12:06 AM
12/25/13 12:06 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Of course God does not do the same thing as Hitler.

The motivations of God could never be compared. He has proven His love so perfectly that there is NO EXCUSE for sin.

The execution of judgment is in perfect righteousness, not in the satanic fury but in the righteous wrath of God against satanic fury.

Who died first? Able was killed by his own brother in the spirit of satanic fury. Did God destroy Cain immediately? No, is he marked for destruction? most definately.

God does not kill anyone. The natural result of sin is death. This is part of the great controversy which you jsot do not understand. You are not alone. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

God is not like Hitler, because does not kill. Sin kills. The universe now knows this, they have seen Christ die the sinner's death. The world needs to know this. This is the theme of the 3 angels.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159590
12/25/13 01:04 AM
12/25/13 01:04 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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If you are so knowledgable on God then tell me what this means?

"At His own will God summons the forces of nature to overthrow the might of His enemies—“fire and hail; snow, and vapor; stormy wind fulfilling His word.” Psalm 148:8. We are told of a greater battle to take place in the closing scenes of earth’s history, when “the Lord hath opened His armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of His indignation.” Jeremiah 50:25. {EP 362.2}
The revelator describes the destruction that is to take place when the “great voice out of the temple of heaven” announces, “It is done.” He says, “There fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent.” Revelation 16:17, 21. {EP 362.3}

Oh but God doesn't do this does he? He doesn't aim those missiles, they just fall out of the sky at random right? If you could see the perfection of the Glory of God you would not argue against statements like this...

"With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God’s law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast, the sign of allegiance to the power he chooses to obey instead of God. “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.” Revelation 14:9, 10. {HF 368.2}
Not one suffers the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience and has been rejected. Many have never had opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. He who reads every heart will leave none who desire the truth to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {HF 368.3}

The words "wrath of God" appear seven times in Revelation, yet you want to make these statements a lie.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Oh but Jesus would never do that, shame on the bible for saying so, right APL?

When does the word 'wrath' not mean wrath? When APL and the movement he is connected to says so.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159592
12/25/13 03:03 AM
12/25/13 03:03 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
If you are so knowledgable on God then tell me what this means?

"At His own will God summons the forces of nature to overthrow the might of His enemies—“fire and hail; snow, and vapor; stormy wind fulfilling His word.” Psalm 148:8. We are told of a greater battle to take place in the closing scenes of earth’s history, when “the Lord hath opened His armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of His indignation.” Jeremiah 50:25. {EP 362.2}
The revelator describes the destruction that is to take place when the “great voice out of the temple of heaven” announces, “It is done.” He says, “There fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent.” Revelation 16:17, 21. {EP 362.3}

Oh but God doesn't do this does he? He doesn't aim those missiles, they just fall out of the sky at random right? If you could see the perfection of the Glory of God you would not argue against statements like this...

"With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God’s law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast, the sign of allegiance to the power he chooses to obey instead of God. “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.” Revelation 14:9, 10. {HF 368.2}
Not one suffers the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience and has been rejected. Many have never had opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. He who reads every heart will leave none who desire the truth to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {HF 368.3}

The words "wrath of God" appear seven times in Revelation, yet you want to make these statements a lie.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Oh but Jesus would never do that, shame on the bible for saying so, right APL?

When does the word 'wrath' not mean wrath? When APL and the movement he is connected to says so.


jsot - - pay attention!!!

Numbers 21:5-7 And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loathes this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

Deuteronomy 8:15 Who led you through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought you forth water out of the rock of flint;

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159594
12/25/13 03:41 AM
12/25/13 03:41 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Yes APL, and that same book ends with these statements.

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:11, 12. {GC 666.1}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. (This is when they begin to sweat blood and gnash teeth) They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart—all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

And now before the swaying multitude are revealed the final scenes—the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; the supernatural darkness; the heaving earth, the rent rocks, the open graves, marking the moment when the world’s Redeemer yielded up His life. {GC 667.1}
The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed. Herod, who slew the innocent children of Bethlehem that he might destroy the King of Israel; the base Herodias, upon whose guilty soul rests the blood of John the Baptist; the weak, timeserving Pilate; the mocking soldiers; the priests and rulers and the maddened throng who cried, “His blood be on us, and on our children!”—all behold the enormity of their guilt. They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour’s feet, exclaiming: “He died for me!” {GC 667.2}

(This is when God and Magog start to feel the wrath of God. They see every sin they committed just like Jesus did for everyone in Gethsemane. Continuing;)

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}
It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. “All this,” cries the lost soul, “I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me. Oh, strange infatuation! I have exchanged peace, happiness, and honor for wretchedness, infamy, and despair.” All see that their exclusion from heaven is just. By their lives they have declared: “We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us.” {GC 668.3}
As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, “Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints” (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life. {GC 668.4}
Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, “son of the morning;” how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his. {GC 669.1}

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God’s justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}
Saith the Lord: “Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.” “I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.... I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.... Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}
“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

You do not acknowledge the full word of God on this subject APL.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159597
12/25/13 06:17 AM
12/25/13 06:17 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jsot
You do not acknowledge the full word of God on this subject APL.
You ignore the keys. Yes, the wicked are destroyed. Yes, the wicked die. But you do not understand God's justice. His ways are not our ways. You said I could not explain the Lord's Armory. You were wrong. You ignore how it is that God uses his armory. Why? Because you think God operates like you do. You should see God "As He Is". Jesus is the key. Look at Jesus. Perhaps you too will overcome the "son of thunder" as His disciples did.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159624
12/26/13 09:10 PM
12/26/13 09:10 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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So you make the accusation that I don't know how God uses His armory yet you do not provide your reasoning behind that statement, that is a very flawed approach.

God cleanses the earth with the same righteous fire that went out in your heart.

His righteousness ignites the fallen world. His angels execute His justice as if it was by the hand of God himself.

The angels are the direct emisaries of the Father in the name of the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit.

When the angel of death executes the judgment of the Father it is the Father doing the execution. Just because it is by the hand of an angel, or fire from the presence of God does not mean it was not God who did it.

You make it sound like God has created a barier between Himself and the execution of His justice so He can claim denyabillity.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159625
12/26/13 10:14 PM
12/26/13 10:14 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jsot
You make it sound like God has created a barier between Himself and the execution of His justice so He can claim denyabillity [sic].
To you, execution of justice is God killing those that choose not to follow Him, "love me, or I will kill you". Justice does not have to have God killing sinners. Justice can be God letting sinners have what they have chosen and the natural results of the same.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159634
12/27/13 09:42 AM
12/27/13 09:42 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
You make it sound like God has created a barier between Himself and the execution of His justice so He can claim denyabillity [sic].
To you, execution of justice is God killing those that choose not to follow Him, "love me, or I will kill you". Justice does not have to have God killing sinners. Justice can be God letting sinners have what they have chosen and the natural results of the same.


Now you condescend to tell me what I believe? You obviously have a hard enough time dealing with understanding your own beliefs, please don't strain yourself by trying to claim you understand what I believe too.

If God be God, worship Him...

You would probably argue with Mrs White about some of her writings.

Here is the beginning of wisdom, the fear of the Lord. Would you say this is evil?

Do you know what the fear of the Lord is? Do you know what His strange act is?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159635
12/27/13 09:49 AM
12/27/13 09:49 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"In the fields where the boy David had led his flock, shepherds were still keeping watch by night. Through the silent hours they talked together of the promised Saviour, and prayed for the coming of the King to David’s throne. “And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” {DA 47.3}

Why is it that every time the angel of the Lord appears men fall to the ground in terror?

You do not know the glory of the Lord.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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