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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15969
10/05/05 03:52 AM
10/05/05 03:52 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
So in brief what I'm saying is that not only does our fallen nature contribute to our temptations, so does past sins we have committed.
I agree, in part. I believe our past sins are part of our old man mind (i.e., our combined sinful traits of character), which is crucified (i.e., eliminated) when we are born again.
During the time that we were walking in the mind of the old man, developing our sinful traits of character, the corresponding traits were strengthened in our fallen flesh nature. The internally generated temptations originate with our sinful flesh nature – not our new man mind. Remember, our old man mind was crucified when we were born again. Thus, it cannot tempt us any more.
Ephesians
2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
The “desires of the flesh” are the temptations produced by our fallen flesh nature, and the “desires… of the mind” refer to the temptations produced by our old man mind. But, when we were born again and baptized, our old man mind was eliminated, along with its voice and temptations. It is only the mind and voice of our fallen flesh nature that now tempts internally. Unless, of course, we stop abiding in Jesus and resurrect our old man mind, at which point we resume where we left off sinning.
Romans
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
When we’re born again, Jesus implants within us the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God’s character, and all the fruits of the Spirit. Our old man mind is dead, and our new man mind does not tempt us to sin. Therefore, the internal temptations that bombard us daily originate in our sinful flesh nature.
Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Is that how you see things?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15970
10/05/05 03:57 AM
10/05/05 03:57 AM
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OP
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quote:
My position is that there are bodily impulses (for food, water, sex, etc.), but that there are also impulses originated in the mind, which have nothing to do with the body (for instance, the impulse to lie, love of money, pride, etc.). So I think our position differs here.
Actually, Rosangela, I agree with you - if you are talking about the mind of the old man and not the mind of the new man. Do you agree with the observations outlined in the post preceding this one?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15971
10/04/05 11:16 PM
10/04/05 11:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that it was theoretically possible for Christ to have been tempted sexually, but He wasn't actually tempted sexually. Is this correct?
Pardon me for reasking my question, but I am not clear as to your answer. You compared Jesus with Paul, who was no doubt sexually tempted (Paul, that is), yet Paul had the gift of celibacy, so was able to deal with it. This is how I interpret your answer relating to Paul.
However, for Jesus, I'm not clear as to whether you are saying that Jesus was tempted in a way He could handle, like Paul, or whether He was not tempted at all.
Thank you for your answer,
Tom
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15972
10/04/05 11:22 PM
10/04/05 11:22 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Remember, our old man mind was crucified when we were born again. Thus, it cannot tempt us any more.
No, I don't see things like this. This doesn't really make sense to me, for reasons I pointed out, which I'll restate.
Take the case of someone who has smoked. Such a person is converted. I would say that this person may be tempted to smoke again not just by his flesh but also by the fact that he has committed this act so many times, and it is engrained as a habit. Your theory would seem to preclude this latter temptation, which to my mind is MUCH stronger than the mere fleshly temptation to smoke, which would be more or less equally strong in all of us.
This makes me think of a second question, which is a little unrelated here, but ties into a conversation from another thread. It seems to me that a person could ignorantly smoke, so could be a believer and commit the sin of smoking. That is, to use your classification, smoking is a sin in the 2300 days sense, an intellectual sense. Do you agree?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15973
10/05/05 02:58 PM
10/05/05 02:58 PM
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OP
SDA
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Tom, if our old man mind is not dead and buried when we're born again, why, then, did Paul say so in Romans 6?
In Galatians 5 Paul attributes things like hatred and jealousy to the flesh. That is, the temptation to be hateful and jealous, in the case of people walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, originates with sinful flesh nature. Do you agree that the new man mind that God implants within us the moment we're born again does not and cannot tempt us with evil?
Yes, it is possible for a believer to smoke and not realize it is a sin.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15974
10/06/05 12:19 AM
10/06/05 12:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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My whole way of perceiving what happens is different than yours, so it's difficult for me to answer your questions exactly as you have put them. I will explain how I see things, and you can let me know if that answers your questions or not.
I see what happens when a person is converted is that God awakens in said person a desire for spiritual things. Jesus said, blessed is he who hungers and thirsts for righteousness, for he shall be filled. If we do not resist, God implants in us a desire for righteousness, which is a desire to be like Him and live according to the principles of His kingdom.
Repentance comes from two Greek words meaning "after mind", which is to say that before we repented, we thought one way, but after repenting, we think another way. What causes our "after mind" experience, is the goodness of God, His character.
Jesus said that knowing God is eternal life. That is, knowing God as He is in truth, knowing Him as Christ revealed Him. I see this knowing process begins at conversion and continues throughout eternity.
Regarding temptations, I see that temptations come from two causes. One is from the flesh, and the other is from our past sins -- or to use Sister White's language, inherited and cultivated tendencies to sin. I asked you the smoking question to clarify how you perceive temptation. It seems to me you are denying we are tempted by our cultivated tendencies to sin, which is why I asked the question if you believed a smoker was tempted by his engrained habit of smoking. (You didn't answer this question, although you did answer they other smoking question as to whether smoking would fit into the "intellectual" category).
I don't know if I answered your question or not. If not, please try again.
Tom
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15975
10/07/05 03:15 AM
10/07/05 03:15 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mike,
My position is that our mind is transformed gradually, not all at once. What is transformed at once is the direction of the mind – it was directed to self, now it is directed to God; it was carnal, now it is spiritual. However, I believe we don’t become aware of our sinful tendencies all at once, and these will be transformed gradually, as we discover them.
Tom,
Saying that Satan never, during the whole life of Christ, brought sinful suggestions to Him in this area would seem improbable but, as I said, Christ rejected sinful suggestions at once as repulsive.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15976
10/06/05 11:21 PM
10/06/05 11:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela, I agree with your answer to Mike. I thought what you expressed was well written. quote:
Saying that Satan never, during the whole life of Christ, brought sinful suggestions to Him in this area would seem improbable but, as I said, Christ rejected sinful suggestions at once as repulsive.
How can one be tempted by something which is repulsive? Any temptation would be a sinful suggestion, would it not? So this would seem to say that every temptation Christ received was repulsive. Which would make temptation for Him fundamentally different than for any other human being, it seems to me.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15977
10/08/05 03:09 AM
10/08/05 03:09 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
We are told that Christ hated sin. How do you see this?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15978
10/08/05 03:40 AM
10/08/05 03:40 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I see that Christ hated sin because of the pain it caused to His Father, the pain it causes others, because it is contrary to God's will, because it causes death, and other reasons. For the same reasons we hate sin (although His hatred of it was more developed than ours, in accordance to how His character is more developed).
Our hatred for sin does not prevent us from being tempted.
You said you are familiar with the statement that says temptation is being strongly moved to do something we know is wrong. I haven't been able to find it. If you can, I'd appreciate it if you would post it (or a reference). I think it might be a helpful statement to look at.
Thanks.
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