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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159832
12/31/13 04:17 PM
12/31/13 04:17 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Doesn't righteousness imply something about rightness? That is, there must be a distinction between right and wrong rather than one dictator doing an act and it be considered wrong and another dictator doing the exact same act be considered righteousness.


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
however, this view of the final judgment ignores, dismisses, disregards, rejects the fact Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire
I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but I don't recall if Hitler burned anyone alive. So maybe if you're comparing God to the Inquisition would be more accurate?

Set 'em on fire!
rejoice

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159836
12/31/13 04:52 PM
12/31/13 04:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Kland, you believe nature is self-acting. You believe Jesus set things in motion and now they act in and of themselves. You assume nature is free to wreak havoc when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand. The following passages paint an entirely different picture of God and nature:

Quote:
The natural world has, in itself, no power but that which God supplies. {1SM 293.1}

God is the superintendent, as well as the Creator, of all things. The Divine Being is engaged in upholding the things that He has created. The same hand that holds the mountains and balances them in position, guides the worlds in their mysterious march around the sun. {1SM 293.2}

God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans. He employs His agencies that vegetation may flourish. He sends the dew and the rain and the sunshine, that verdure may spring forth, and spread its carpet over the earth; that the shrubs and fruit trees may bud and blossom and bring forth. It is not to be supposed that a law is set in motion for the seed to work itself, that the leaf appears because it must do so of itself. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results. It is through the immediate agency of God that every tiny seed breaks through the earth, and springs into life. Every leaf grows, every flower blooms, by the power of God. {1SM 294.2}

The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God. "Ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building (1 Corinthians 3:9). In God we live and move and have our being. Each heartbeat, each breath, is the inspiration of Him who breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life--the inspiration of the ever-present God, the great I AM. {1SM 294.3}

God is perpetually at work in nature. She is His servant, directed as He pleases. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all His works according to His will. It is not by an original power inherent in nature that year by year the earth produces its bounties and the world keeps up its continual march around the sun. The hand of infinite power is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power momentarily exercised that keeps it in position in its rotations. The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. It is not as the result of a mechanism, that, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. Every breath, every throb of the heart, is the continual evidence of the power of an ever-present God. It is God that maketh the sun to rise in the heavens. He openeth the windows of heaven and giveth rain. He maketh the grass to grow upon the mountains. "He giveth snow like wool: and scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes." "When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, . . . he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." Although the Lord has ceased His work in creating, He is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things which He has made. Said Christ, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (MS 4, 1882). {6BC 1062.5}

The idea that serpents will gang up and attack humans when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand contradicts the inspired passages above (and the ones posted throughout this thread). Jesus uses nature to "carry out His plans". "He effects results . . . according to His will".

1. God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans.

2. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results.

3. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all His works according to His will.

PS - In the past you have ignored these facts. I have no reason to hope you will deal with them now. But ignoring them will not make them go away.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159837
12/31/13 05:08 PM
12/31/13 05:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Kland, fire from the presence of Jesus in the most holy place blazed out and killed Nadab and Abihu:

Quote:
"And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord."

God had forbidden them to use the common fire to present before him with the incense, upon pain of death. {RH, July 29, 1873 par. 4}

Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1}

A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

The minds of Nadab and Abihu were beclouded because of intemperance, and in the place of taking the fire God had commanded them they took the common fire, and God destroyed them. {Te 287.2}

Nadab and Abihu were slain by the fire of God's wrath for their intemperance in the use of wine. God would have his people understand that they will be visited according to their obedience or transgressions. {2SM 412.4}

And the wrath of God was kindled against Nadab and Abihu for their disobedience, and a fire went out from the Lord, and devoured them in the sight of the people. By this judgment God designed to teach the people that they must approach him with reverence and awe, and in his own appointed manner. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 9}

Do you think Jesus withdrew His restraining hand and fire acted in and of itself and killed Nadab and Abihu? If so, how does that make Jesus any less culpable?

What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159838
12/31/13 11:17 PM
12/31/13 11:17 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
The idea that serpents will gang up and attack humans when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand contradicts the inspired passages above (and the ones posted throughout this thread). Jesus uses nature to "carry out His plans". "He effects results . . . according to His will". 

1. God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans.

2. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results.

3. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all His works according to His will.


Originally Posted By: EGW
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}


Hm - did God create the fiery serpents? Hm - did God command the serpents to bit the people?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159841
01/01/14 03:42 AM
01/01/14 03:42 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hm - HOW are death and hell cast into the lake of fire?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159842
01/01/14 09:07 AM
01/01/14 09:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
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There are countless times when God simply removes His protection from those who reject Him.
The snake scene was one such case.

The desert is full of poisonous snakes -- people are still warned of that in that area.
Quote:
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}


Yet just because that is most often the case, does not mean God will not execute justice upon the rejecters of salvation.

The case of the two drunk priests entering the temple with strange fire were obviously entering a place in a presumptuous manner, where the glory of God dwelt, and to them the glory of God was a consuming fire and they died.

I mean it's true God removed His protection that would have enabled them to live in the presence of His glory, but by removing that protection they were still killed.



The reason for the investigative judgement, as well as the millennial review of the cases, and the white throne judgement is to show that God is perfectly fair and just in who is saved and who suffers the second eternal death.

At that time there will be NO one in the whole universe who thinks God is a tyrant because He will destroy Satan and His followers.

Just how it will happen is actually totally irrelevant -- it is ordained by God, the method is irrelevant, the vast army assembled to attack God's city probably have weapons of mass destruction which could be the "fire in the midst of thee" that all explode at once; coupled with "fire from beneath" setting off mega volcanos; and fire from heaven. But fire it will be that encircles the whole world and consumes everything outside God's city.

Quote:
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}


The bottom line is there will be one world wide fire that destroys every trace of sin and it will be controlled by God to do its full and final work. It is the final death of all elements that sustain sin and it is the end of hell -- when it is all over, there will be no more death, no more pain, no more crying, NO MORE SIN. Those rescued from this world of sin during their lifetime, by the matchless love and grace of Jesus will have life eternal with our Redeemer.

Let's encourage every one to be hid in Christ for He is the ONLY door to salvation, and not be found standing outside the Holy city, like the people in Noah's day, standing outside the ark.






Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: dedication] #159849
01/01/14 02:52 PM
01/01/14 02:52 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: dedication
I did study the Sabbath School Lessons this past quarter, and indeed God has done everything possible to win, forgive, restore, and cleanse every person.
Yes, Christ takes our sins upon Himself, the whole sanctuary service is a process to remove sin from us so we can be saved and have eternal life. God has done everything so we can have salvation.

Yet, how does this excuse the people who reject that marvelous gift and determine to keep their sins upon themselves.

Are you also of the opinion that God has no right to bring them to judgment, show them why they are not saved, and cleanse the earth of all sin?

After the 1000 years and before the Great White Throne judgment the lost demonstrate that God is just -- they are incurable. In one vast army they will think to capture God's city and dethrone God Himself. They aren't sorry for their sins only sorry they lost the war.
The fairness and love of God will not be in question in anyone's mind except in those who believe that God should allow sin to continue forever.

The presence of God is a consuming fire to sin, and those who cling to sin will be consumed, while those who have allowed His love and glory to burn sin out of their lives will live happily in His presence.

The issue is -- are we allowing God to burn the sin OUT of our lives NOW!


Reading those lessons is not doing anyone much good if they have a preconceived image of the nature of God.

That goes for the nature of fire as well. Most "Christian" churches have a wrong concept of what fire is. The emergence of the Seventh-day Adventist church meant a reformation with new emphasis of the nature of God, redemption, the second coming, of health, of the Sabbath, of tithing, and of fire, not as an eternally burning element to punish the wicked. But it seems awfully hard for some Adventists to let go of some of those Babylonian concepts.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Johann] #159850
01/01/14 03:10 PM
01/01/14 03:10 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Iceland
For months I have watched the fire gushing out of the earth,lightening up the sky, and I have even walked on the hardened surface with fire in the cracks. It makes an impression.

God uses the fire and water to cleanse the work of man that He will be able to crate a new earth and a new heaven.

Is it the fire which extinguishes the life of the wicked for ever?

What is needed for man to live? What is the second death?

Last edited by Johann; 01/01/14 03:11 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159851
01/01/14 03:43 PM
01/01/14 03:43 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You assume nature is free to wreak havoc when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand. The following passages paint an entirely different picture of God and nature:


Quote:
The natural world has, in itself, no power but that which God supplies. {1SM 293.1}

God is the superintendent, as well as the Creator, of all things. The Divine Being is engaged in upholding the things that He has created. The same hand that holds the mountains and balances them in position, guides the worlds in their mysterious march around the sun. {1SM 293.2}



In whose interest did Ellen write the following:
Quote:
Show that it was sin which marred God’s perfect work; that thorns and thistles, sorrow and pain and death, are all the result of disobedience to God. Bid them see how the earth, though marred with the curse of sin, still reveals God’s goodness. The green fields, the lofty trees, the glad sunshine, the clouds, the dew, the solemn stillness of the night, the glory of the starry heavens, and the moon in its beauty all bear witness of the Creator. Not a drop of rain falls, not a ray of light is shed on our unthankful world, but it testifies to the forbearance and love of God. {CCh 264.6}

Last edited by Johann; 01/01/14 03:45 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Johann] #159854
01/01/14 04:18 PM
01/01/14 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Dedication, thank you for posting this passage on a different thread:

Quote:
Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. {PP 404.4}

God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" (Hosea 4:17) is the divine command. Then "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26, 27. {PP 405.1}

APL and Kland vigorously advocate Jesus does not destroy.

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