The following quotes support Tom's position:

1BC 1083
In what consisted the strength of the assault made upon Adam, which caused his fall? It was not indwelling sin; for God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. Adam was as faultless as the angels before God's throne. These things are inexplainable, but many things which now we cannot understand will be made plain when we shall see as we are seen, and know as we are known (Letter 191, 1899). {1BC 1083.6}

PP 61
After their sin Adam and Eve were no longer to dwell in Eden. They earnestly entreated that they might remain in the home of their innocence and joy. They confessed that they had forfeited all right to that happy abode, but pledged themselves for the future to yield strict obedience to God. But they were told that their nature had become depraved by sin; they had lessened their strength to resist evil and had opened the way for Satan to gain more ready access to them. In their innocence they had yielded to temptation; and now, in a state of conscious guilt, they would have less power to maintain their integrity. {PP 61.4}

CON 45
Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of heaven to help him with His human and divine strength combined. Christ knew that Adam in Eden with his superior advantages might have withstood the temptations of Satan and conquered him. He also knew that it was not possible for man out of Eden, separated from the light and love of God since the fall, to resist the temptations of Satan in his own strength. In order to bring hope to man, and save him from complete ruin, He humbled Himself to take man's nature, that with His divine power combined with the human He might reach man where he is. He obtained for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that strength which it is impossible for them to gain for themselves, that in His name they might overcome the temptations of Satan. {Con 45.2}

CON 47
Fallen men had not the advantages of Adam in Eden. They had been separating from God for four thousand years. The wisdom to understand, and power to resist, the temptations of Satan had become less and less, until Satan seemed to reign triumphant in the earth. Appetite and passion, the love of the world, and presumptuous sins were the great branches of evil out of which every species of crime, violence, and corruption grew. Satan was defeated in his object to overcome Christ upon the point of appetite. And here in the wilderness Christ achieved a victory in behalf of the race upon the point of appetite, making it possible for man, in all future time in His name to overcome the strength of appetite on his own behalf. {Con 47.1}

John, there's different ways to understand grace. I don't disagree with the things you wrote. The things I wrote are also true, I believe, as shown by the quote I provided. So it seems to me we're dealing with a situation of trying to express ideas with words when there's not a one to one correspondence of the two (i.e. one to one correspondence of ideas and words).

Another way of saying what you said, it seems to me, is that God is by nature gracious, and so acts graciously to all, or equivalently extends grace to all.

Rosangela, what do you see is different between fallen and unfallen man in regards to man's nature and temptation? Does Christ's life and death do anything for man other than achieve merit which is dispensed as needed? (am I expressing your view correctly here?)

I see a difference in the experience of man regarding faith and grace in that man has personally experienced God's mercy. Surely there are Spirit of Prophesy quotations to this effect. This seems very obvious to me.

Unfortunately I'm very busy right now, so won't have much time to look for things. I appreciate that insights and questions being provided. I'm especially interested in answering Rosangela's question regarding if unfallen Adam needed grace as much as Christ did. My immediate reaction is that, as Adam pointed out, God could deal with Adam on the basis of obedience, because he never sinned, and while it is true that Christ also never sinned, and thus could be dealt with on the basis of obdience, Christ never could have overcome without grace in the first place. So Christ needed grace to overcome, but unfallen Adam did not. Why? Because Christ was made to be sin for us. He Himself never sinned, but He took our sinful nature, and more than that, was made to be sin for us.

He cried out:

quote:

---

11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. 12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. 13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. (Ps. 40:11-13)

---

We know this is Christ from earlier verses and Hebrews 10 which quotes this psalm as referring to Christ. The experience quoted here is not one of unfallen Adam, and sounds a lot like a plea for grace.

Here's a statement from the Spirit of Prophesy:

quote:

---

Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 11/03/00)

---

This contrasts unfallan Adam's position of no corrupt principles nor tendencies to evil with Christ's position in taking "the likeness of sinful flesh." The difficulties which unfallen man has to face are more greater than what Adam had to face, and required the sacrifice of Christ to enable fallen man to overcome. By the sacrifice of Christ, I do not mean merely His death, but His becoming human; His whole life's ministry, and culminating with His death. Without this supreme revelation of God's character, fallen man would have had absolultely no chance of overcoming the sophistry of Satan. But unfallen Adam could have overcome without this sacrifice of Christ. So there is a difference in what is needed for fallen man and unfallen man.

This is looking at things in a small scale. In a broader view, the sacrifice of Christ was as necessary for unfallen beings as for fallen ones, in terms of placing the universe on a basis of stability by clarifying God's character and the principles of His government in contrast with Satan's. Of course this is just what Christ did for fallen man as well, so I'm sort of arguing both sides of the question on this one.

I appreciate the thoughts and questions. This has been a very stimulating study.

Tom and Mike,

The main difference I see between fallen and unfallen man in regards to man's nature and temptation is moral power, that is, the power to do the will of God – to do right and to resist evil.

Using Mike’s quotations:

But they were told that their nature had become depraved by sin; they had lessened their strength to resist evil and had opened the way for Satan to gain more ready access to them. In their innocence they had yielded to temptation; and now, in a state of conscious guilt, they would have less power to maintain their integrity. {PP 61.4}

Fallen men had not the advantages of Adam in Eden. They had been separating from God for four thousand years. The wisdom to understand, and power to resist, the temptations of Satan had become less and less, until Satan seemed to reign triumphant in the earth. {Con 47.1}

It was impossible for man, who had weakened his moral power through transgression of God's law, to keep the commandments of God; {ST, June 15, 1891 par. 5}

This is the disadvantage of fallen man in relation to unfallen man. That Christ had moral power from birth is clear, for He never sinned:

The life of Christ was distinguished from the generality of children. His strength of moral character, and his firmness, ever led him to be true to his sense of duty, and to adhere to the principles of right, from which no motive, however powerful, could move him. Money or pleasure, applause or censure, could not purchase or flatter him to consent to a wrong action. He was strong to resist temptation, wise to discover evil, and firm to abide faithful to his convictions. {YI, April 1, 1872 par. 3}

It seems to me that His divinity supplied the wisdom to discover evil, the strength to resist temptation, the firmness to abide faithful to right. What do you guys think about this?

I think there is a difficulty in what you wrote in that the Spirit of Prophesy states that Christ disproved Satan's claims that man could keep the law. If Christ overcome by His own divine power, then He did nothing to disprove Satan's claims.

quote:

---

Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges. (ST 1/16/96)

---

A second question I had about the explanation is what it means to say that man does not have moral power to resist temptation and do right? That is, would you express the thought in other words (i.e. without using the phrase "moral power").

Finally, I believe that because of Adam's sin, man's nature was impacted so that he had tendencies to sin which did not exist before Adam's sin. That is, Adam had no corrupt principles or tendencies to evil:

quote:

---

Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

---

So having corrupt principles and tendencies to evil in the flesh is a characteristic of fallen man, and is the reason IMO that man does not have the moral power to resist temptation and do right.

I agree that Christ overcame the weaknesseses of fallen humanity by divine power, but it was not by virtue of His own divinity that Christ overcame, but by the divine power of His Father. Christ overcame by faith, not by virture of His own divine power.

Sister White uses the expression "moral power" scores of times. While we are born with moral power we are not born with the ability to use it unto the honor and glory of God. We must be born again and receive the implanted mind of the new man and partake of the divine nature in order to use our moral powers to obey the law of God and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become like Jesus. Thus it was for Jesus. He, too, had to rely on His Father to resist sinning and to develop a pure and spotless character.

Tom,

I will write in more detail later, but I gave a simple definition in the first sentence of my post - moral power is the power to do right and to resist evil.