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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159954
01/04/14 03:08 AM
01/04/14 03:08 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Posts: 3,613
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Either we allow the righteous fire of God to enter our hearts here to purge us from sin, or He will appear suddenly to our hearts at His second coming and we will be destroyed by that glory.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159955
01/04/14 03:15 AM
01/04/14 03:15 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. There is no free will... This is the exact argument Satan used against God's righteous indignation. "But after the Fall, Satan bade his angels make a special effort to inculcate the belief in man’s natural immortality; and having induced the people to receive this error, they were to lead them on to conclude that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Now the prince of darkness, working through his agents, represents God as a revengeful tyrant, declaring that He plunges into hell all those who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and that while they suffer unutterable anguish and writhe in the eternal flames, their Creator looks down upon them with satisfaction. {DD 15.2} Of course Satan would have you read this like it supports your theory, but you are wrong and you should repent, but God has told me you wil NEVER repent for misrepresenting God's character. I truly fear for you.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159956
01/04/14 03:18 AM
01/04/14 03:18 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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M: The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners. He managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.
A: There is no free will... What do you mean? Nature doesn't have freewill. Jesus uses it to punish sinners. He doesn't violate freewill when He chooses to punish sinners. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1} Again, nature is not self-acting. In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {CCh 324.4} You have ignored these kinds of passages. And no wonder - they completely contradict your view.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159957
01/04/14 03:46 AM
01/04/14 03:46 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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My internet was spotty, and I didn't even realize any part of that post had been submitted. I had written more, and now that I have internet again, let me repost it:
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.
Perhaps APL's Jesus was not "alive" before His incarnation, nor after His ascension to Heaven. So sad. Note that "character" is mentioned alongside of "life." Jesus' character is shown us through all of Creation, in addition to the many acts of love and mercy poured out from all of Heaven in our behalf. But, no, APL would prefer his comfortable blinders--to shut out any additional light that he might not wish to see and which appears to his vision to have not been shown us through Jesus' life incarnate on earth. I wish to banish such blinders.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Again - you are not arguing with me, this is EGW's statement. Do you reject the her testimony????? No -- I don't see him arguing against the statement but rather the interpretation that narrows that statement down to Christ's 33 years as a human on earth. Interesting text: Notice the caution built into this text. “Search the Scriptures;” Jesus says, “for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of Me.” (John 5:39). What is Jesus talking about? He is speaking of the OT -- His audience knew the scriptures but had missed the central theme in those OT scriptures -- Christ was revealing Himself through those scriptures. He was God manifest from the beginning of earth's history. It was Jesus Christ Who spoke to Adam and Eve, it was Christ Who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. It was Christ in that pillar of cloud and pillar of fire leading the Israelites out of Egypt. When Christ came to earth He showed in a powerful way the love and mercy of God and the utmost desire that human beings be saved. Yet, we have more pictures of Christ when He comes to execute justice -- "that thou (Jesus) shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Rev. 11:18
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: dedication]
#159958
01/04/14 03:58 AM
01/04/14 03:58 AM
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dedication - my "narrow" interpretation of the reference is not based on that reference alone. There are numerous! One I have quoted from before, is ST January 20, 1890, "God Made Manifest in Christ". Under yours and MM's, and asygo's and green's, this would be all eternity, not His life on earth. But the this reference is specifically His life on earth! I quote: Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9} Back up and we find more about this mission. Christ came to save fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6} ... That God could consent to become flesh, and dwell among fallen beings, to lift them up from their helplessness and despair, is an unfathomed mystery. He whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, whose dominion endureth throughout all generations, made himself to be sin for us that he might lift up all that are bowed down, and give life to those who are ready to perish. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 8}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! ... {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9} When is this reference speaking about a revelation of God? Christ life on this earth, as a man! Oh that we could open our minds to know God as He is revealed in His Son!!! Yes, Christ is revealed in the scriptures. And Christ life on earth unlocks the scriptures and gives us the true understanding. The disciples on the road to Emmaus knew the scriptures. Christ unlocked them. There are many impressions of God that one gets from the OT. Christ is the key that unlocks them. As EGW says, "Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!" She is speaking of His life on EARTH.
Last edited by APL; 01/04/14 04:03 AM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: dedication]
#159959
01/04/14 04:00 AM
01/04/14 04:00 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Has anyone here heard of the Lord anointing Jehu?
2 Kings 9:6 "Jehu got up and went into the house. Then the prophet poured the oil on Jehu’s head and declared, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anoint you king over the Lord’s people Israel. 7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the Lord’s servants shed by Jezebel. 8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free. 9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah. 10 As for Jezebel, dogs will devour her on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and no one will bury her.’” Then he opened the door and ran."
18 Then Jehu brought all the people together and said to them, “Ahab served Baal a little; Jehu will serve him much. (this was a deception) 19 Now summon all the prophets of Baal, all his servants and all his priests. See that no one is missing, because I am going to hold a great sacrifice for Baal. Anyone who fails to come will no longer live.” But Jehu was acting deceptively in order to destroy the servants of Baal.
20 Jehu said, “Call an assembly in honor of Baal.” So they proclaimed it. 21 Then he sent word throughout Israel, and all the servants of Baal came; not one stayed away. They crowded into the temple of Baal until it was full from one end to the other. 22 And Jehu said to the keeper of the wardrobe, “Bring robes for all the servants of Baal.” So he brought out robes for them.
23 Then Jehu and Jehonadab son of Rekab went into the temple of Baal. Jehu said to the servants of Baal, “Look around and see that no one who serves the Lord is here with you—only servants of Baal.” 24 So they went in to make sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had posted eighty men outside with this warning: “If one of you lets any of the men I am placing in your hands escape, it will be your life for his life.”
25 As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: “Go in and kill them; let no one escape.” So they cut them down with the sword. The guards and officers threw the bodies out and then entered the inner shrine of the temple of Baal. 26 They brought the sacred stone out of the temple of Baal and burned it. 27 They demolished the sacred stone of Baal and tore down the temple of Baal, and people have used it for a latrine to this day.
30 The Lord said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in accomplishing what is right in my eyes and have done to the house of Ahab all I had in mind to do, your descendants will sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation.”
This was a command directly from the mouth of God through the prophet Elijah.
Was it wrong for God to have Jehu lie about offering sacrifice to Baal? Was it wrong for God to use the meeting of the priests to slay them? Was it wrong for God to command for them to be killed?
You make it sound as if God didn't want His people to kill others for Him, yet here is a direct command from God through Elijah, a Holy man of God, to KILL all of the priests and followers of Baal. Are you saying God is evil for this APL?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159960
01/04/14 04:15 AM
01/04/14 04:15 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Amazes me how anyone can read the story of Korah, Dathan and their followers and believe everything that happened was just a "natural result" of God withdrawing his protection.
Just outline the many uprisings of rebellion that are met with punishment during that short space of time.
-- earth swallows three leaders -- And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. -- a plague wipes out 14,700 and only Aaron's actions stops the plague. -- As EGW says: "God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" ( Hosea 4:17) is the divine command." The "let him alone" means the Holy Spirit no longer pleads. But God wasn't about to "let Israel alone" in the scene under discussion. There was too much at stake. God worked to restore a nation through which He would bless the whole world, and the only way to do it was to cull out those who were bending all their energies to turn that nation away from God. It wasn't satan's plan to get rid of his most dedicated men in subverting God's plans for Israel. To even insinuate Satan was standing by, ready to destroy his own men that were doing such a wonderful job of turning the people against God and His prophet, and to do it at the precise moment to vindicate God, and thus help cleanse Israel is blasphemy. Numbers 16:19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them (against Moses and Aaron) unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the congregation. 16:20 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 16:22 And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be wroth with all the congregation? 16:23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 16:24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 16:25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. 16:26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. 16:27 So they departed from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD has not sent me. 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that belongs unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all their goods. 16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. 16:36 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 16:37 Speak unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, that he take up the censers out of the burning, and scatter thou the fire yonder; for they are hallowed. 16:38 The censers of these sinners against their own souls, let them make them broad plates [for] a covering of the altar: for they offered them before the LORD, therefore they are hallowed: and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel. 16:39 And Eleazar the priest took the brazen censers, wherewith they that were burnt had offered; and they were made broad [plates for] a covering of the altar: 16:40 [To be] a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which [is] not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses. 16:41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD. 16:42 And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared. 16:43 And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation. 16:44 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 16:45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces. 16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. 16:47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people. 16:48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed. 16:49 Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. 16:50 And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159961
01/04/14 04:15 AM
01/04/14 04:15 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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This is how this issue is perfectly answered but APL will not hear it, which proves APL does is not motivated by the Spirit of Truth...
"John saw the mercy, the tenderness, and the love of God blending with His holiness, justice, and power. He saw sinners finding a Father in Him of whom their sins had made them afraid."
Do you see? It is sin that causes men to be affraid of God because of His wrath against sin! He is loving and gentile, but when sin enters our hearts He is a consuming fire. Continuing...
"And looking beyond the culmination of the great conflict, he beheld upon Zion “them that had gotten the victory ... stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God,” and singing “the song of Moses” and the Lamb. Revelation 15:2, 3. {AA 589.1} The Saviour is presented before John under the symbols of “the Lion of the tribe of Judah” and of “a Lamb as it had been slain.” Revelation 5:5, 6. These symbols represent the union of omnipotent power and self-sacrificing love. The Lion of Judah, so terrible to the rejectors of His grace, will be the Lamb of God to the obedient and faithful. The pillar of fire that speaks terror and wrath to the transgressor of God’s law is a token of light and mercy and deliverance to those who have kept His commandments. The arm strong to smite the rebellious will be strong to deliver the loyal. Everyone who is faithful will be saved. “He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:31. {AA 589.2}
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159962
01/04/14 04:37 AM
01/04/14 04:37 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Why was Adam affraid after he ate the fruit? Satan hadn't had the time to teach Adam of any lies about God's destruction of the wicked. The only thing he had taught Adam was that he would not surely die but would become like God.
So if Adam had not been given opportunity to be lied to about the wrath of God then why was Adam affraid?
"The Christian world in this age are inclined to accept the sophistries of Satan in the place of the words of God. Many have separated themselves from God by wicked works, and they love not to behold God or to retain Him in their knowledge. They do not want to see God any more than did Adam when he hid himself from the approach of his heavenly Father..." {FH 191.3}
At the second coming the same effect motivates the wicked who hide from the wrath of the Lamb.
"The earth trembled before Him, the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Those who a short time before would have destroyed God’s faithful children from the earth, now witnessed the glory of God which rested upon them. And amid all their terror they heard the voices of the saints in joyful strains, saying, “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us.” {EW 286.2}
When men reach a certain point, like decreeing the destruction of God's people, they cross the line of God's forebearance and He is no longer responsible for their outcome, they are not shielded from His wrath and they are slaughtered by His appearing. This is a natural fear of righteousness to every sinner.
The wicked do not care to be softened by God's grace. They harden their hearts against God's reproof and they do not gain any benefits from His teachings. The righteous see the signs that they are doomed to destruction by God's wrath and they repent.
So the issue is, FEAR GOD and give glory to Him, realize His hatred of sin, or do not and see the wrath of the Lamb.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159963
01/04/14 04:43 AM
01/04/14 04:43 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Oh jsot - why did not stop on verse 30, quoting the NIV I might add?
2 Kings 10:31 AKJV But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart: for he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.
And jsot - you should take note of EGW writing directly to you! " If we would enter into the joy of our Lord, we must be colaborers with Him. With the love of Jesus warm in our hearts, we shall always see some way to reach the minds and hearts of others. It will make us unselfish, thoughtful, and kind; and kindness opens the door of hearts; gentleness is mightier far than a Jehu spirit."
So go ahead, emulate Jehu, but you will be wrong in doing so.
"By their fruits ye shall know them." Christ has not been revealed in your deportment toward some who were much nearer the kingdom of heaven than yourselves. The Lord has opened before you your wrong toward His children--your want of mercy and love, your determination to control minds and make them see things just as you see them. And when light came to you, what course did you take? Did you merely admit that you were wrong, or did you heartily confess your error and humble your proud hearts before God? Did you cast aside your ways and accept God's teachings? Did you go to the very ones you had bruised and wounded, and say: "I have been wrong; I have sinned against you. Forgive me. I have failed; I have worked in my own spirit. I had a zeal, but not according to knowledge. It was the spirit of Jehu, rather than the meekness and lowliness of Christ. The word of God directs: 'Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.' Will you pray for me that God will forgive me for the distress and anguish I have caused you?" {5T 342.1}
Do you really want the spirit of Jehu? I think not!
The truth should be presented with divine tact, gentleness, and tenderness. It should come from a heart that has been softened and made sympathetic. We need to have close communion with God, lest self rise up, as it did in Jehu, and we pour forth a torrent of words that are unbefitting, that are not as dew or as the still showers that revive the withering plants. Let our words be gentle as we seek to win souls. God will be wisdom to him who seeks for wisdom from a divine source. We are to seek opportunities on every hand, we are to watch unto prayer, and be ready always to give a reason for the hope that is in us, with meekness and fear. Lest we shall impress unfavorably one soul for whom Christ died we should keep our hearts uplifted to God, so that when the opportunity presents itself, we may have the right word to speak at the right time. If you thus undertake work for God, the Spirit of God will be your helper. The Holy Spirit will apply the word spoken in love for the soul. The truth will have quickening power when spoken under the influence of the grace of Christ. {6T 400.1}
James - Open your eyes, and see God as He is revealed in His Son!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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