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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: APL]
#159918
01/02/14 04:23 PM
01/02/14 04:23 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
You don't see a difference between NIV and KJV on Lev. 23:32?
NIV says the only sabbath to observe from even to even is that of the ninth day of the month.
KJV speaks of that day, but then clarifies that sabbaths are to be kept from even to even--thus it broadens the application of the principle significantly.
Of course, you'll probably continue to argue they say the same thing. But then, you have probably not had a difficult Bible study where the other individual sees it as I have just shared it here. If that is their view, there is nothing in the NIV to dissuade them from it.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#159920
01/02/14 04:29 PM
01/02/14 04:29 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL,
You don't see a difference between NIV and KJV on Lev. 23:32?
NIV says the only sabbath to observe from even to even is that of the ninth day of the month.
KJV speaks of that day, but then clarifies that sabbaths are to be kept from even to even--thus it broadens the application of the principle significantly.
Of course, you'll probably continue to argue they say the same thing. But then, you have probably not had a difficult Bible study where the other individual sees it as I have just shared it here. If that is their view, there is nothing in the NIV to dissuade them from it.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. So, it is not a problem with the verse, it is a problem with the interpreter! I get it. That is why it was hard for you to support the Sabbath. The NIV is clear: From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath." By this reasoning, then the KJV is also wrong based on Genesis!
Last edited by APL; 01/02/14 04:32 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: APL]
#159921
01/02/14 04:33 PM
01/02/14 04:33 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
How is the KJV "also wrong?" That doesn't make sense. The KJV does not tell us that the "even to even" principle applies only to a "ninth day of a month." That is the NIV saying that.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#159924
01/02/14 05:25 PM
01/02/14 05:25 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL,
How is the KJV "also wrong?" That doesn't make sense. The KJV does not tell us that the "even to even" principle applies only to a "ninth day of a month." That is the NIV saying that.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Well green, Genesis gives us the definition of a "day", evening and morning. The quote of Leviticus 23:32, which is where "even to even" is quoted, (is there another that I missed?), it not speaking of the 7th-day Sabbath, but the Day of Atonement.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: APL]
#159925
01/02/14 05:44 PM
01/02/14 05:44 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I see. So, you basically would say Leviticus 23:32 does not properly apply to the seventh-day Sabbath--therefore, it's wrong of Adventists to use it that way. Is that what I'm getting?
Anything to support your favorite errors.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#159928
01/02/14 06:13 PM
01/02/14 06:13 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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I see. So, you basically would say Leviticus 23:32 does not properly apply to the seventh-day Sabbath--therefore, it's wrong of Adventists to use it that way. Is that what I'm getting?
Anything to support your favorite errors.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Did I say what you are accusing me of? NO. Was it me that was making a big deal about the ninth of the month in leviticus 23:32, no it was you. This is describing the Day of Atonement! Surely you know that, right? So where do you get your accusations from?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: APL]
#159929
01/02/14 06:17 PM
01/02/14 06:17 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I see. So, you basically would say Leviticus 23:32 does not properly apply to the seventh-day Sabbath--therefore, it's wrong of Adventists to use it that way. Is that what I'm getting?
Anything to support your favorite errors.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Did I say what you are accusing me of? NO. Was it me that was making a big deal about the ninth of the month in leviticus 23:32, no it was you. This is describing the Day of Atonement! Surely you know that, right? So where do you get your accusations from? Try Ellen White. I saw it was even so, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath." Said the angel, "Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is." I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon his people for commencing the Sabbath as they have. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath. I followed the people of God up to this time, and did not see that God was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been
4
thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel, "Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet." Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at "even," and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw the servants of God must draw together, press together. {4bSG 3.3} Now, if Ellen White was shown this verse, and had it explained to her by the angel as applying to the Sabbath, I believe it. I'm not surprised, however, that you do not--because the NIV obscures this truth, and you will go to any lengths to uphold it. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#159932
01/02/14 06:35 PM
01/02/14 06:35 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Again - you make baseless claims. The NIV supports the same conclusion as the KJV.
Leviticus 23:32 KJV It shall be to you a sabbath of rest, and you shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even to even, shall you celebrate your sabbath.
Leviticus 23:32 NIV It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."
Perhaps you'd like another "modern" version?
Leviticus 23:32 NLT This will be a Sabbath day of complete rest for you, and on that day you must deny yourselves. This day of rest will begin at sundown on the ninth day of the month and extend until sundown on the tenth day."
Leviticus 23:32 ESV It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."
Leviticus 23:32 NET It is a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must humble yourselves on the ninth day of the month in the evening, from evening until evening you must observe your Sabbath."49
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: APL]
#159938
01/03/14 05:14 AM
01/03/14 05:14 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I haven't heard of the NET before, but whatever it is, along with ESV and KJV, those are the only ones which in this case preserve the concept of every sabbath following the even-to-even principle. The other versions explicitly apply that principle to the ninth day of the month--which changes things.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/03/14 05:21 AM. Reason: Spotty internet again...sorry.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith
[Re: APL]
#159940
01/03/14 05:45 AM
01/03/14 05:45 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,593
Canada
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The sanctuary --
I still remember the time I had a talk on the sanctuary and my "scripture reading text" was
Ps. 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
The person doing the scripture reading got up and read:
"Your way, O God, is holy;
What god is great like our God?"
Oh sure one can find other sanctuary texts, yet I find this happening to me quite often -- a text that I know says one thing but when I need it to show someone, and they are using newer translations, the text is different projecting a different meaning.
Then there is Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Those verses clearly show Paul being addressed to preach to GENTILES the next Sabbath, which He does.
But that completely disappears in the new versions. I remember talking to one person and wanting to show them these verses AND I COULD NOT FIND THEM because it was a NIV.
Why? Because it was a completely different rendering --
"As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath."
Easily written off as just a bunch of Jews keeping the Sabbath and Paul -- well of course if he meets with Jews will do so on the Sabbath.
BUT the KJV clearly shows GENTILES begging Paul to come and preach to THEM, on the next Sabbath. This can be a problem when your proof text is just one verse, and a verse that is contested. Just keep reading. Acts 13:44-45 NIV On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. Who is included in "the whole city"? Just the Jews? The next verse shows that it not the case. This is from the NIV. It has taken out the most convincing statement. The Gentiles ASKED for Paul to preach to THEM on the next Sabbath -- that is missing in the new version. The anti-Sabbath people will quickly explain away what is left of the scene in the new translations by saying -- sure the Jews met on Sabbath and others were curious enough to meet then too -- big deal. But when the first part is left in -- we see the Gentiles asking Paul to come to THEM the next Sabbath. Now if the Sabbath was changed, Paul would have said "no need to wait till next Sabbath, tomorrow (sunday) is the new Sabbath, I'll come tomorrow. But Paul doesn't say that to the Gentiles -- it is the next Sabbath that he holds a city wide Sabbath service. You see the new versions leave enough to make it seem there is no problem, BUT THEY HAVE taken out the strength of the verses to make them easier to rationalize away.
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