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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159975
01/04/14 06:27 AM
01/04/14 06:27 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever? YES - God is a consuming fire. What does this fire consume? SIN! The righteous will thrive in this fire!!! Thus it is SIN that causes the death, not God! You sound as if you have been moved in this response. I have said the exact same thing over and over. What is a sin? Open rebelion against the law of God. It takes a concience to sin. Sin is not of itself, it must be accomplished through a person. The sinner is the representative of the sin until repented of. Sin is destroyed with it's representatives at the end of Atonement. Every unconfessed sin is paid for by the sinner. So in essence you just agreed with what God has been sharing with me without even realizing it.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159976
01/04/14 06:45 AM
01/04/14 06:45 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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We must look to the Atonement to understand the intent of the Father in giving the sanctuary and the sacrifices.
"Some who labor in word and doctrine have not a practical understanding of the law of God and its holy claims, or of the atonement of Christ. They themselves need to be converted before they can convert sinners. {GW92 111.1}
The Atonement demanded death of the sinner, but a sacrifice was made and the sin was transfered to the Mercy seat, and then the record of sin which was building in the most Holy Place was transfered to the head of the scapegoat.
These things must be understood to understand the message of Christ and until you do know these things what would motivate you to teach others?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159977
01/04/14 06:52 AM
01/04/14 06:52 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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In case you didn't catch it APL, the Atonement is important because the sinner was responsible for the execution of the daily sacrifices. They where to see themselves taking the life of the Son of God to truly benefit from the exercise of faith.
Then the record of sin was cleansed by the High Priest corporately but individually represented.
Everyones heart was supposed to follow the High Priest into the Most Holy Place in their minds and imagine the process in full graphic image of blood splattered on the gold.
The propitiation is what it is all about, and this means sin is transferable to cleanse us. If we do not repent, then the Glory of the Lord destroys the sinner who stands before Him.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159978
01/04/14 07:04 AM
01/04/14 07:04 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever? YES - God is a consuming fire. What does this fire consume? SIN! The righteous will thrive in this fire!!! Thus it is SIN that causes the death, not God! You sound as if you have been moved in this response. I have said the exact same thing over and over. What is a sin? Open rebelion against the law of God. It takes a concience to sin. Sin is not of itself, it must be accomplished through a person. The sinner is the representative of the sin until repented of. Sin is destroyed with it's representatives at the end of Atonement. Every unconfessed sin is paid for by the sinner. So in essence you just agreed with what God has been sharing with me without even realizing it. My position has never changed. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. This is the natural consequence of sin! God does not have to inflict the penalty of sin. Other here say sin has no intrinsic consequence. The penalty of sin must be inflicted by God. God has to punish sin. Hogwash. Sin destroys. Sin kills. Sin is the problem, not God. AS to the nature of sin, Satan is constantly trying to misrepresent this. Sin affects not only humans, but ALL LIFE on this planet.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159979
01/04/14 07:08 AM
01/04/14 07:08 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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In case you did not catch the significance james, the SINNER caused the death of the sacrifice, not God! Sin killed the Son of God. Sin is the cause of all sickness, disease, and death, not God. Some here do not believe this! They say God inflicts sickness, disease and death. To them, God is the problem! Not sin.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159980
01/04/14 07:35 AM
01/04/14 07:35 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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God ownes everything. He is fully beyond anything of earth, but He has a Son who became human.
Jesus had to die for us or we would have to die because we have sinned against God. Wages of sin is death. It does not say the wages of sin is banishment from God, because we were born that way until we accept Christ. The wages of sin is judgment and death. There is a judgment and the execution of justice is death.
Our sin takes away His righteous covering and without it we are destroyed in His presence. Adam made covering of figs because of his nakedness. He was afraid of God because he knew the wages of sin was death. The sentence would have been pronounced and executed that day if Jesus had not stood up for Adam.
Adam was condemned to die that day if Jesus had not presnted Himself a sacrifice.
But Adam confessed his sin and it was transfered to the Mercy seat waiting to be put on the head of the scapegoat who will suffer for Adam's sin.
Jesus is the propitiation, He is righteous, so carrying those sins was most intense to His conscience to the point of death. He literally fell dying to the ground of Gethsemane from suffering the wrath of the Father in carying every sin, but He would have been instantaniously destroyed if He stood with His own sins in front of the Wrath of the Father.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#159982
01/04/14 03:08 PM
01/04/14 03:08 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The wages of SIN, is death, Romans 6:23. Sin, when IT is full grown, brings forth death, James 1:15. It does not say, the wages of sin is execution by God. Yes, Jesus was dying in Gethsemane, and the Father did not touch Him. On the cross, did Jesus say, my God, why are you torturing Me? My God, my God, why are you burning Me? NO. He said, My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN Me. On the cross, He felt the same agony sinners will feel in the end.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#159983
01/04/14 03:43 PM
01/04/14 03:43 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners. He managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.
A: There is no free will... What do you mean? Nature doesn't have freewill. Jesus uses it to punish sinners. He doesn't violate freewill when He chooses to punish sinners. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1} Again, nature is not self-acting. In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {CCh 324.4} You have ignored these kinds of passages. And no wonder - they completely contradict your view.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159984
01/04/14 03:50 PM
01/04/14 03:50 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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It does not say, the wages of sin is execution by God. This is yet another issue you have doggedly ignored. Jesus will resurrect sinners, judge them, and then cast them alive in the lake of fire. They will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness and then die the second death. This is not the death Jesus died when He paid our sin debt of death on the cross. Refusing to deal with these truths only weakens your view. You cannot continue to hide from the truth and expect people to take your view seriously. The lake of fire is real. Deal with it. It will be made up of fire rained down from above and fire raised up from below. The same fire that punishes resurrected sinners is the same fire that will rid the earth of its rubble and rubbish. Literal fire - not symbolic. I have made the observation about the fire of Nadab and Abihu did not burn their clothes. Interesting fire, would you not agree? The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners. Jesus managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#159987
01/04/14 04:30 PM
01/04/14 04:30 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,603
Canada
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Wow! Shocking news! The theory that God is not the one who condemns.... In his latest revelations, Pope Francis said:
"Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God.” In a shocking speech that is reverberating across the world, Pope Francis declared that:
“All religions are true, because they are true in the hearts of all those who believe in them. What other kind of truth is there? In the past, the church has been harsh on those it deemed morally wrong or sinful. Today, we no longer judge. Like a loving father, we never condemn our children. Our church is big enough for heterosexuals and homosexuals, for the pro-life and the pro-choice! For conservatives and liberals, even communists are welcome and have joined us. We all love and worship the same God.” http://entertainment.vacancynigerians.com/2013/12/shocking-there-is-no-hell-fire-adam-eve.html
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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