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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15989
10/10/05 03:20 PM
10/10/05 03:20 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
How He took our cultivated tendencies to evil, I don't know.
I don't believe He did. Here's why. We all agree there is a difference between inherited and cultivated sins. Apparently, though, we do not agree on why and how they are different.
I believe inherited traits and sinful flesh nature are synonymous terms. Do you agree?
I do not believe cultivated traits (character) and inherited traits (nature) are the same things. Do you agree?
I believe inherited traits are passed on from generation to generation. Do you agree?
I believe we develop character as we cultivate inherited traits. Do you agree?
I believe inherited traits are strengthened as we cultivate them, as we develop character. Do you agree?
I believe we pass on our strengthened traits to our children. Do you agree?
I believe we pass on our cultivated traits as inherited traits. Do you agree?
I do not believe character is inherited. Do you agree?
I believe character is developed as we react and respond to inside and outside stimuli tempting us to sin or encouraging us to imitate the example of Jesus. Do you agree?
I believe Jesus inherited our nature, not our character. Do you agree?
Rosangela, I agree with Tom that there is a difference in how Adam encountered temptation and how fallen people do. Adam was capable of resisting sin in his own strength. His possibility of falling was the same as fallen beings.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15990
10/11/05 03:44 AM
10/11/05 03:44 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't believe He did.
John 1:29 says, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." Surely this is referring to actual committed sins, is it not? (which would be cultivated tendencies to evil). There's also Peter which says that Christ bore our sins in His body. Also Isaiah and others. Do you disagree that these verses are referring to cultivated tendencies to evil?
Here's why. We all agree there is a difference between inherited and cultivated sins. Apparently, though, we do not agree on why and how they are different.
I believe inherited traits and sinful flesh nature are synonymous terms. Do you agree?
Not exactly. Inherited traits can be either good or bad, so the connotation of "inherited traits" is neutral. OTOH "sinful flesh nature" has a negative connotation. If you had said, "inherited tendencies to evil" and "sinful flesh" were synonymous terms, I would agree.
I do not believe cultivated traits (character) and inherited traits (nature) are the same things. Do you agree?
Yes, I agree.
I believe inherited traits are passed on from generation to generation. Do you agree?
Of course. That's what "inherited" means.
I believe we develop character as we cultivate inherited traits. Do you agree?
I believe we develop character as we make decisions. As a result of the decisions we make, we may or may not cultivate inherited traits.
I believe inherited traits are strengthened as we cultivate them, as we develop character. Do you agree?
If we cultivate traits, they become cultivated. "Cultivated" seems to be synonymous to me with "strengthened" as you are using the terms.
I believe we pass on our strengthened traits to our children. Do you agree?
I think this is possible, but not necessarily true. How genetics plays into traits we develop in our lifetime I don't think is clearly understood. There are statements from the Spirit of Prophesy which indicate to me, as I read them, that what you are suggesting does at least at times happen.
I believe we pass on our cultivated traits as inherited traits. Do you agree?
I believe it's possible, but not necessary. I'll give an example. Let's say I learn many foreign languages, before having children. Would my children have a greater genetic proclivity to learn languages because I developed that trait? I doubt it.
I do not believe character is inherited. Do you agree?
I understand that character is developed by the decisinos we make. Decisions we make are not inherited. Tendencies are inherited.
I believe character is developed as we react and respond to inside and outside stimuli tempting us to sin or encouraging us to imitate the example of Jesus. Do you agree?
Yes, I agree.
I believe Jesus inherited our nature, not our character. Do you agree?
How could character be inherited? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15991
10/11/05 10:10 AM
10/11/05 10:10 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom and Mike,
You both believe a myth. Adam should have overcome by faith, laying hold of the divine power, exactly like Christ and like us. How could man overcome a being superior to him without the divine power?
I've already provided quotes showing that Adam should have overcome by faith. Now I will provide a quote showing that he should have laid hold of the divine power to overcome Satan's temptation:
"Satan charmed the first Adam by his sophistry, just as he charms men and women today, leading them to believe a lie. Adam did not reach above his humanity for divine power. He believed the words of Satan. But the second Adam was not to become the enemy's bondslave." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 6}
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15992
10/11/05 10:35 AM
10/11/05 10:35 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
How could character be inherited? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Of course the basic constitution of the character is inherited, and the child will naturally and unconsciously begin to manifest, a few days after birth, all the good and bad traits of character he/she has inherited.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15993
10/11/05 11:03 AM
10/11/05 11:03 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Nothing happens to your nature or your sinful flesh when you are born again. Before being born again you had a human nature, and after being born again you will still have a human nature. Before being born again you have sinful flesh, and after being born again you will still have sinful flesh. Being born again is nothing more than going to work for a new boss. Your allegiance is changed. Now you want to please your new boss and slowly but surely your behavior will change. For example, for 25 years you used to go to the east side of the city to work. You did that everyday. It was your routine. Today you begin work for a new boss on the west side of town. You no longer go to the east side of town, even though from time to time in a fit of absentmindedness you may go in that direction. But you don't change who you are. Only the allegiance of your mind has changed.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15994
10/12/05 02:53 AM
10/12/05 02:53 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I believe cultivated sinful traits of character are passed on as sinful inherited traits. Whether or not we cultivate this or that sinful trait we inherited from our ancestors is a matter of choice. Jesus inherited the same sinful traits we inherited. Unlike us, however, He never cultivated them, never turned them into character.
Although inherited character traits and cultivated character traits are related, that is, one is the mirror image of the other, we are not, however, held accountable in judgment for the traits we inherit. We are only held accountable in judgment for the ones we ourselves choose to cultivate. Do you agree?
Each time a sinful character trait is cultivated and passed on, it becomes stronger to tempt and enslave the next generation. Thus, sinful nature (i.e., our combined anad accumulated inherited sinful traits of character) gains momentum and power and strength each succeeding generation. Do you agree?
Rosangela, good point. But do you agree that Adam possessed powers and abilities that he forfeited when he sinned? powers and abilities we do not possess naturally now? Isn't there an EGW quote to this effect?
Darius, I agree.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15995
10/12/05 04:11 AM
10/12/05 04:11 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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When we speak of Adam having faith and laying hold of divine power, what does that mean? Faith is the conviction of things unseen, but Adam walked face to face with God. No fallen being has seen God at any time, because no man could see God and live. It seems to me there are profound differences between unfallen Adam and fallen man. It seems to me that while faith is essentially beliving or trusting God, this is a much different affair for fallen and unfallen man.
I think we agree that fallen man can not overcome temptation except by divine grace. However we appear to disagree that unfallen beings can overcome temptation without divine power. Since Satan is superior to ever other created being, that would seem to imply that only by laying hold of divine power and exercising faith could any being overcome him. That's certainly a possible explanation, as Satan was preaching lies about God, and the only way to avoid ruin would be by believing God (which is faith).
So we have a tautology here. The only way to believe God is by exercising faith. The alternative is to believe the lie.
So what's the difference between unfallen Adam and fallen man? Let me try stating it another way. Without grace we cannot overcome temptation. Unfallen Adam could have overcome without grace. Maybe that will work.
So regarding Christ's having taken our sinful nature, I'll try to express the thought this way. Christ, had He taken the unfallen nature of Adam, could have overcome temptation without grace. Having taken our fallen nature, Christ could not have overcome apart from God's help, but was as dependent on grace as we are. Christ was righteous by faith.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15996
10/12/05 07:04 AM
10/12/05 07:04 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
It seems to me that while faith is essentially, believing or trusting God, this is a much different affair for fallen and unfallen man.
Trusting or believing someone is the same thing whether you see them or not. It is trusting their: judgment, goodwill, intentions, understanding, wisdon... It is also the same whether one is an angel or sinner.
quote:
I think we agree that fallen man can not overcome temptation except by divine grace. However we appear to disagree that unfallen beings can overcome temptation without divine power.
Grace is needed to stand whether in heaven or on earth. The difference in those who are not fallen is that they are partakers of grace until they break faith, while the fallen beings must by faith first become partakers of grace.
Grace is divine power; the law of the spirit of life.
quote:
So we have a tautology here. The only way to believe God is by exercising faith. The alternative is to believe the lie.
The alternative therefore also takes faith! But it establishes the law of sin and death.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15997
10/12/05 12:18 PM
10/12/05 12:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The difference in those who are not fallen is that they are partakers of grace until they break faith, while the fallen beings must by faith first become partakers of grace.
I'm not following this. I understand that all fallen humanity partakes of God's grace, and it is because of this grace that man exists. For example (I apologize for the long quote, but it's the best I know of on this subject):
quote:
By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him.
This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God. Whatever is rendered back to Him is only His own who has given it. Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. (FW 21, 22)
Before disobedience man received the blessings of God on a different basis than after. After it was on the basis of grace. That's my understanding of what the above is saying.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#15998
10/12/05 12:32 PM
10/12/05 12:32 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Christ, had He taken the unfallen nature of Adam, could have overcome temptation without grace. Having taken our fallen nature, Christ could not have overcome apart from God's help, but was as dependent on grace as we are. Christ was righteous by faith.
Tom,
Adam needed God's help to overcome Satan's temptations as much as Christ did. Both Adam and Christ had to overcome by faith, and faith is trusting God. Can you support your statement that Adam didn’t need grace but Christ needed grace?
Of course in a general sense we could say that the very life unfallen beings enjoy is a gift of God’s grace. However, in a strict sense, grace is the unmerited favor that God displays towards those who sin, and Christ never sinned.
Man before his fall had a perfect love, therefore he could have by faith rendered a perfect obedience (unspotted by selfishness) and merited eternal life, a benefit that would have been extended to his posterity. This was the covenant made with the First Adam. And of course this was also the covenant made with the Second Adam. Christ, by His perfect obedience, redeemed Adam’s failure and earned eternal life, a benefit that is extended to His spiritual posterity. Now we, through His merits, can have eternal life.
And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him. {FW 19.3}
Through the merits of Christ, every soul may win eternal life. {BEcho, November 19, 1894 par. 14}
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