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Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159515
12/23/13 03:03 AM
12/23/13 03:03 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"But no provision had been made to save those who should venture to transgress his law." Angels knew the love of God too well to sin and save themselves. "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159861
01/01/14 04:03 PM
01/01/14 04:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} Does this nature tempt to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways?

A: It can, but not inherently. Satan can still tempt it.

What do you mean by "tempt it"? What is "it"?

Also, since born-again believers "possess Christ's nature" does it mean their inclinations, tendencies, propensities are in harmony with the will of God?

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159896
01/02/14 07:49 AM
01/02/14 07:49 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, since born-again believers "possess Christ's nature" does it mean their inclinations, tendencies, propensities are in harmony with the will of God?

The idea that sincere believers "possess Christ's nature" is often misconstrued to mean that they become possessed by Him in the sense of becoming an avatar for a heavenly spirit. The believer becomes a vessel like the demon-possessed, with the superior spirit bodily living in this world through him, a willing person; except that in the believer's case, the superior spirit is not a demon but the Holy Spirit. But the idea is fallacious.

Jesus said, "IF you love me, keep my commandments." In other words, it is OUR love for God which constrains us to live according to His commandments. The light in which we live is the knowledge of truth which HE has shared with us, and it behooves us to live accordingly, to always do those things that please Him, to be righteous (i.e. to obey His commandments and therefore be found right with Him). Christ's nature was one of willing obedience because of the great love He had for His Father.

To say that we "possess Christ's nature" therefore is not to say that we become bodily "Holy Spirit possessed" as if a higher power were living in us. Rather, it means that we have entered into a covenant relationship with God, governed by love, and we have agreed to obey Him and He has agreed to save us from destruction. We are still who we are, in full possession of the free will He gave us at birth. However, we follow the example of Christ: we grow to love God as much as He did and the NATURE of that love of which we speak is just like the love He had for His Father, who has adopted us.

Are we still encumbered by temptation? Do we still stumble and fall? Why? Because we lose sight of God and desire those things before us, and then we act accordingly. Nevertheless, God wants us to endure the temptations of this life, to follow Him in spite of all that entice us away. And by so doing, we grow, behaving more and more like His Only-begotten Son in whom He was well-pleased. Our "inclinations, tendencies, propensities GROW in harmony with the will of God." Our love for God takes us nearer and nearer to Him and further and further away from destructive practices. We "posses Christ's nature" when we love God as much as he did, NOT as a consequence of Him bodily living in us, literally through the Holy Spirit as some teach. The latter is only a figure of speech aptly describing the intimacy and strength of our love for Him and the love He has for us.

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 01/02/14 08:20 AM.
Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: James Peterson] #159909
01/02/14 02:49 PM
01/02/14 02:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: james peterson
The idea that sincere believers "possess Christ's nature" is often misconstrued to mean that they become possessed by Him in the sense of becoming an avatar for a heavenly spirit.

I didn't know some people believe such a thing. Interesting. Perhaps they take "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me" too literally. In Christ we can say - "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. {DA 466.5}

The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. This is our proper work. As soon as we earnestly enter upon the work, God's grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to cooperate. The Holy Spirit works the human agent, to work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." {TM 240.2}

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159917
01/02/14 03:19 PM
01/02/14 03:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus had the same "transformed, renewed, regenerated, refined, purified, ennobled, vitalized nature" born-again believers receive when they experience conversion in God's appointed way. It is this "new nature" that enabled Jesus and enables Christians to partake of the divine nature, resist temptations, grow in grace, and mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

Quote:
The sanctification of the soul by the working of the Holy Spirit is the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity. Gospel religion is Christ in the life--a living, active {COL 384.1}

The sanctification of the soul by the operation of the Holy Spirit is the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity. It is the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in character, and the grace of Christ brought into active exercise in good works. {3SM 198.4}

Not by the decisions of courts or councils or legislative assemblies, not by the patronage of worldly great men, is the kingdom of Christ established, but by the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity through the work of the Holy Spirit. {DA 509.4}

The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only-begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ. This union is represented by the union of the vine and the branches. Finite man is united to the manhood of Christ. Through faith human nature is assimilated with Christ's nature. We are made one with God in Christ. {1SM 251.1}

As we strive to meet the perfection that God requires, insensibly to us the human will become molded to the divine. Christ's nature will be revealed in human nature; the words will become gentle and courteous, the ways kind and helpful. Tho we may be largely unconscious of the change, yet the transformation is being surely wrought. Beholding day by day the glory of the Lord, we are molded into conformity to His Spirit and will. {ST, February 24, 1909 par. 4}

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3}

The questions is - Does the "transformed, renewed, regenerated, refined, purified, ennobled, vitalized nature" tempt us from within to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways?

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159936
01/03/14 01:40 AM
01/03/14 01:40 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus had the same "transformed, renewed, regenerated, refined, purified, ennobled, vitalized nature" born-again believers receive when they experience conversion in God's appointed way. It is this "new nature" that enabled Jesus and enables Christians to partake of the divine nature, resist temptations, grow in grace, and mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3}

The questions is - Does the "transformed, renewed, regenerated, refined, purified, ennobled, vitalized nature" tempt us from within to indulge innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways?

See? You are still of the belief that sincere believers "possess Christ's nature" in the sense that they become possessed by Him like an avatar for a heavenly spirit. Rather, when you have accepted Jesus and have been baptized, even as you come out of the water, you are STILL YOU. The only difference between pre- and post-conversion is your acknowledgement that God is worthy of your love and worship. There is a resolution therefore to follow Him; nothing else.

It is written, "[God] brought [Abraham] outside and said, Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them. And He said to him, So shall your descendants be. And he believed in the Lord, and [The LORD] accounted it to him for righteousness." (Gen. 15:5-6)

Yet it was the SAME Abraham before and after. Now Abraham, much as we are called to do, was going to begin the brand new way of life, NOT WITH A BRAND NEW NATURE, but a brand new way of living. It is the reason we are still encumbered by sin, our nature has not changed, just our resolve to walk in the light. And if we do not walk in the light, we stumble and fall. In fact Jesus compares this new beginning to being born albeit again. We must grow now and growth requires faith, hope, love and exercise: to continue walking in the light.

After sincere conversion, you do not suddenly acquire a "transformed, renewed, regenerated, refined, purified, ennobled, vitalized nature". That's a fallacy, and you yourself can honestly reflect on your own journey and see that it's a lie.

///

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: James Peterson] #159945
01/03/14 02:59 PM
01/03/14 02:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, your description of people who experience rebirth and conversion in God's appointed way describes a radical miracle. I agree with your avatar illustration. We are still us - albeit a new and greatly improved us. For the first time we are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man. For the first time sinning is optional - not automatic. We are free to abide in Jesus, free to partake of the divine nature, free to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

We are not born again or converted mature in the faith or in the fruits of the Spirit. Nevertheless, we are, if we experience rebirth and conversion in God's appointed way, born again and converted complete. "Ye are complete in him". (Col 2:10) "Ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." (Col 4:12) "All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes." (COL 330) "When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing." (DA 676)

"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1}

Here is a before and after description:

Quote:
The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

This is our great need today in every church in our land. For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Galatians 5:22, 23). "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace" (James 3:18). {YRP 289.3}

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

The leaven of truth, working inwardly will be revealed in the life. The heart must be cleansed from all impurity, man must be fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God in any line. The process is invisible by which the leaven changes the mass of meal into which it has been introduced, but it works until the meal is converted into bread. So must the Spirit of God work a radical change. New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. {TDG 186.1}

Bible conversion and sanctification,--a radical change of heart and transformation of character,--is the great need of the churches of today. {4SP 306.1}

True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. {4T 16.4}

Serve the Lord Jesus Christ with the whole heart. God expects you to purify your soul from all defilement. True conversion means a radical change of heart. {13MR 165.1}

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159948
01/03/14 04:35 PM
01/03/14 04:35 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
... free to partake of the divine nature ...

What do you mean that we "partake of the Divine nature"?

When we partake of food, we eat it and it becomes a part of us. We partake in celebrations and games and so forth, and so we become a part of the experience. How exactly then do we "partake of the Divine nature"?

///

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: James Peterson] #159953
01/04/14 02:03 AM
01/04/14 02:03 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
How exactly then do we "partake of the Divine nature"?

It is supernatural. "No man [can] explain it, because it is supernatural, but the new birth shows practical results. {ST, November 30, 1891 par. 1}

Quote:
Through the plan of salvation, power was to operate in the re-creation of man. The remedy for the sinner was of a supernatural character. {ST, July 2, 1896 par. 4}

Men's weakness shall find supernatural strength and help in every stern conflict to do the deeds of Omnipotence, and perseverance in faith and perfect trust in God will ensure success. {CC 118.4}

Our condition through sin has become preternatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. {CCh 322.8}

This work is carried forward by a firm, divine, supernatural agency. {TSA 32.4}

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. {DA 324.1}

Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition; nothing can be done for him; but through divine grace, supernatural power is imparted to the man and works in mind and heart and character. {FW 100.3}

Christ promised that the Holy Spirit should abide with those who wrestle for victory over sin, to demonstrate the power of divine might by endowing the human agent with supernatural strength and instructing the ignorant in the mysteries of the kingdom of God. {AG 212.5}

Through His merits and imparted power they will be "more than conquerors." Supernatural help will be given them, enabling them in their weakness to do the deeds of omnipotence. {HP 252.4}

The Holy Spirit was promised to be with those who were wrestling for victory, in demonstration of all mightiness, endowing the human agent with supernatural powers and instructing the ignorant in the mysteries of the kingdom of God. {ML 48.4}

He charges them not to enter into the battle without counting the cost, while He assures them that they do not fight alone, but that supernatural agencies will enable the weak, if they trust in Him, to become strong against the vast confederacy of evil arrayed against them. {UL 82.4}

The Lord has a people on the earth, and his working with them reveals the supernatural results that are seen when the human will is under the control of the will of God. {RH, July 31, 1900 par. 7}

A new power takes possession of the new heart. Man can never work out this change for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into weak and wicked human nature. {1888 1319.1}

Re: Did Christ have sinful tendencies? How does EGW use the word propensities? [Re: Mountain Man] #159986
01/04/14 03:26 PM
01/04/14 03:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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By the way, the divine nature is not the same nature Jesus renews, regenerates, transforms when we experience rebirth and conversion in God's appointed way. It is the renewed nature that enables us to partake of the divine nature. The combination of the two natures empowers us to resist the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature and, more importantly, it empowers us to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Partaking of the divine nature supplies the supernatural element described in the passages posted above. A renewed human nature is not sufficient in and of itself. The combination of the two is necessary for the miracle to happen - the miracle of maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit. "A new heart also will I give you" (Ezekiel 36:26). "Is not this, the renewal of man, the greatest miracle that can be performed? What cannot the human agent do who by faith takes hold of the divine power?" {AG 253.5} Answer - They cannot sin while abiding in Jesus.

This is our great need today in every church in our land. For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Galatians 5:22, 23). "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace" (James 3:18). {YRP 289.3}

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