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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16009
10/14/05 11:26 PM
10/14/05 11:26 PM
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Happy Sabbath to you all.
Tom,
This is a very deep subject, and I’m just saying what seems to make more sense to me, but I’m not claiming to have a correct understanding of the subject.
Ellen White does say that Christ depended on God by faith, that He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but she also has many passages like the following, which seem to imply that He overcame because of His divinity:
"The Saviour, during his life on the earth, was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. In him the weakness of humanity was united with the strength of divinity. Because he experienced the temptations of humanity, he knows how to succor all who are tempted; because his humanity was united with divinity, every young man, every young woman, who chooses to follow in his footsteps, may be a partaker of the divine nature, and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust." {CUM, September 3, 1907 par. 5}
"Christ overcame every temptation of the enemy, because in him divinity and humanity were combined." {ST, September 26, 1892 par. 4}
"In Christ, divinity and humanity were combined. Divinity was not degraded to humanity; divinity held its place, but humanity by being united to divinity, withstood the fiercest test of temptation in the wilderness."--Ibid., Feb. 18, 1890. {7ABC 445.1}
And she makes it even more clear here:
"Then [after the third temptation] it was that the divinity of Christ came to the aid of His humanity. With divine authority He commanded, 'Get thee behind Me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve' (Luke 4:8)."--Ms 92, 1908, pp. 6, 8. {8MR 290.4}
"All who are striving for the crown of everlasting life will be tempted as was their Master before them. He was proffered the kingdoms of the world if He would pay homage to Satan. Had Christ yielded to this temptation, the world would have passed forever under the sway of the wicked one. But, thank God, His divinity shone through humanity. He did that which every human being may do in the name and strength of Jesus. He said, 'Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve' (Matt. 4:10). If this is the way you meet temptation, Satan will leave you, as he left Christ, and angels will minister unto you, as they ministered unto Him." {2SM 137.2}
Perhaps what she means is that the Trinity worked together in Christ? His divinity acted, but never independently of the divinity of the Father and of the Holy Spirit.
It is also by the power of divinity that we may overcome, so Christ did nothing that we can't do.
As to moral power, it is the power to do the will of God and not deviate of it; so it means, by extension, the power to discern and resist temptation.
"The sinful nature of man was weak, and he was prone to the transgression of God's commandments. Man had not the power to do the words of God; that is why Christ came to our world, that He might give him moral power." {14MR 82.3}
Our tendencies to evil are the areas in which we are weaker in moral power, that is, the areas in which we are more prone to fall into temptation.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16010
10/15/05 04:47 AM
10/15/05 04:47 AM
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quote:
This is a very deep subject, and I’m just saying what seems to make more sense to me, but I’m not claiming to have a correct understanding of the subject.
We can agree on this!
If we consider what Christ's mission was, it seems evident that He could have not accomplished it by relying on His own divinity. His mission was to reveal God's character, and including demonstrating to man the possibility of overcoming by faith. This could not have been done had He relied on His own power. The following discusses one miracle, but the same principle applies to all:
quote:
When Jesus was awakened to meet the storm, He was in perfect peace. There was no trace of fear in word or look, for no fear was in His heart. But He rested not in the possession of almighty power. It was not as the "Master of earth and sea and sky" that He reposed in quiet. That power He had laid down, and He says, "I can of Mine own self do nothing." John 5:30. He trusted in the Father's might. It was in faith--faith in God's love and care--that Jesus rested, and the power of that word which stilled the storm was the power of God.(DA 336)
The quote I mentioned earlier brings out that Satan's claim was that fallen man could not overcome the law. Christ put the lie to this claim of Satan's, according to the Spirit of Prophesy. This is only possible if Christ took our nature and was tempted as we are, in all ways whatever we are tempted. This is logically clear, and this claim is made many times by the Spirit of Prophesy. The same logic she used was used throughout our literature and preached publicly, until relatively recently.
I think this is the quote I quoted before:
quote:
Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges.(ST 1/16/96)
I already made the point that Christ had to take our nature, be tempted like we are, and overcome like we do in order to put the lie to Satan's claims. Another point I'd like to raise here is that Christ had to do these things in order to reveal God's character. This is because Satan's claim challenged God's wisdom and love. In order to vindicate God's character, Christ must overcome as we overcome.
I would like to understand the connection between Christ's taking our nature and His mission to reveal God's character. I believe all truth is related to God's character, and all error can be traced to a misunderstanding of God's character. In particular the view that God is arbitrary has many implications.
I like you am simply sharing how I understand these things, and like you don't claim to completely understand them. In particular, as I mentioned, I'd like to understand more clearly how Christ's taking our nature and overcoming demonstrates God's wisdon and love.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16011
10/16/05 03:01 AM
10/16/05 03:01 AM
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Rosangela, the divinity combined with humanity applies to born again believers, as well.
COL 314
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}
FW 71
Christ took upon Himself humanity for us. He clothed His divinity, and divinity and humanity were combined. He showed that that law which Satan declared could not be kept, could be kept. Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}
FW 93, 94
We must center our hopes of heaven upon Christ alone, because He is our Substitute and Surety. We have transgressed the law of God, and by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified. The best efforts that man in his own strength can make are valueless to meet the holy and just law that he has transgressed; but through faith in Christ he may claim the righteousness of the Son of God as all-sufficient. Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined. {FW 93.3}
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16012
10/15/05 04:31 PM
10/15/05 04:31 PM
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Yes, Mike, exactly. We can only overcome temptation by combining humanity with divinity. Ellen White says that Christ overcame temptation because in Him humanity and divinity were combined. What does she refer to here? His own divinity? Or the Father's divinity? What do you think about it?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16013
10/15/05 04:50 PM
10/15/05 04:50 PM
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quote:
The quote I mentioned earlier brings out that Satan's claim was that fallen man could not overcome the law. Christ put the lie to this claim of Satan's, according to the Spirit of Prophesy. This is only possible if Christ took our nature and was tempted as we are, in all ways whatever we are tempted.
Tom,
Satan said that angels in heaven couldn't keep the law. He said that man before his fall couldn't keep the law:
"Satan, the fallen angel, had declared that no man could keep God's law, and he pointed to the disobedience of Adam as proving the declaration true."--ST April 10, 1893. {TA 58.3}
It is only logical that man after his fall couldn't keep the law. But what Satan claimed was that the whole race was under his control (Jesus came to put an end to this claim):
"Satan, the fallen angel, had declared that no man could keep the law of God after the disobedience of Adam. He claimed the whole race under his control." {5MR 112.1}
But Christ didn't come to demonstrate that man after his fall could keep the law. He came to demonstrate that man before his fall could keep the law:
"Christ came to the earth, taking humanity and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement." {1SM 253.4}
As the representative of the race, Christ came to redeem not our failure, but Adam's failure:
"Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, he began where the first Adam began. Willingly he passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam's failure." {YI, June 2, 1898 par. 1}
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16014
10/16/05 03:15 AM
10/16/05 03:15 AM
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OP
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Rosangela, do these quotes help you answer your question:
TDG 298
Contemplate Jesus your Saviour. Think how He humbled Himself. He was Commander in the heavenly courts, but He laid aside His crown, His kingly robe, and clothed His divinity with humanity, that humanity might touch humanity, and divinity lay hold upon divinity. For the sake of fallen man He humbled Himself. {TDG 298.1}
DA 644
He had a full consciousness of His divinity; but He had laid aside His royal crown and kingly robes, and had taken the form of a servant. {DA 644.5}
RC 237
For thirty-three years He lived the life of a man among men, meeting the temptations that we must meet, and overcoming through the strength imparted from above. His divinity was not manifested in any display of pomp and royal power. {RC 237.3}
RC 237
Christ came to stand at the head of humanity, and to demonstrate that through the power of the Holy Spirit it is possible for man to withstand Satan's temptations.{RC 237.4}
OHC 48
The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16015
10/16/05 04:41 AM
10/16/05 04:41 AM
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Rosangela, it's true that Satan claimed that a whole bunch of different classes couldn't keep the law, including humanity in general, and unfallen humanity. It's also true that Christ showed that man could keep the law; that is, man in general. However, that wasn't my point. My point is that Satan claimed that fallen man could not keep the law, and that Christ put the law to that claim. The quote I provided stated that: quote:
Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges. (ST 1/16/96)
Notice that she refers implicitly to Romans. 8:3, 4, which says that same thing she is. Christ came in our flesh in order that we, fallen man in sinful flesh, could overcome. Christ could not give victory to us in our flesh unless He took the very same flesh in which we are to be victorious. This was the unanimous logic of Adventism for nearly 100 years.
Here are some other quotes that point out that it is the question of whether fallen man could keep the law that Christ put to rest:
quote:
Christ declared, where stands Satan's throne, there shall stand My cross, the instrument of humiliation and suffering. No single principle of human nature will I violate. Clothing My divinity with humility, I will endure every temptation wherewith man is beset. I will call to My aid the powers of heaven, that men and women, imbued with My Spirit, may overcome as I overcame. 5MR 114)
Note that Christ did not violate any principle of human nature. The powers He used to overcome were only that which we have access to. He could not overcome on the basis of His own divinity, as in this case that charges against God's character would still remain.
quote:
The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, as our example, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. (ST 1/17/93)
We don't have the ability to call upon our divinity to overcome, so neither could Christ. He could only keep the commandments of God in the same we that we can, which is by faith, not by inherent divinity.
quote:
Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of Heaven to help him with his human and divine strength combined. Christ knew that Adam in Eden, with his superior advantages, might have withstood the temptations of Satan, and conquered him. He also knew that it was not possible for man, out of Eden, separated from the light and love of God since the fall, to resist the temptations of Satan in his own strength. In order to bring hope to man, and save him from complete ruin, he humbled himself to take man's nature, that, with his divine power combined with the human, he might reach man where he is. He obtains for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that strength which it is impossible for them to gain for themselves, that in his name they may overcome the temptations of Satan. (RH 8/18/74)
This quote brings out a number of the points we've been discussing. Christ obtained a victory for fallen man that fallen man could not obtain by reaching us where we are, by taking our nature. It is only by taking fallen man's nature that Christ could reach us where we are; it is only in this we that Christ could make it possible for us to overcome.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16016
10/16/05 12:29 PM
10/16/05 12:29 PM
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Guys, That Christ should have overcome by the power of the Father and the Spirit is no problem to me. I’m just sharing some passages with you that are intriguing to me, in which Ellen White seems to be speaking of His own divinity, like the following, for instance: "In Christ, divinity and humanity were combined. Divinity was not degraded to humanity; divinity held its place, but humanity by being united to divinity, withstood the fiercest test of temptation in the wilderness."--Ibid., Feb. 18, 1890. {7ABC 445.1} She begins by referring to Christ’s own divinity – this seems clear. Wouldn’t it be strange if she proceeded to talk about God’s divinity without any indicative of this in the text? Also, the quotes about the third temptation, mentioned in my post of Oct. 14 xx:26 PM. What about the last quote you mentioned, Tom? “Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of Heaven to help him with his human and divine strength combined.... he humbled himself to take man's nature, that, with his divine power combined with the human, he might reach man where he is.” Anyway. quote:
Christ came in our flesh in order that we, fallen man in sinful flesh, could overcome. Christ could not give victory to us in our flesh unless He took the very same flesh in which we are to be victorious.
Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He came in our flesh in the physical sense, not in the fleshly mind, which constitutes what the Bible calls “flesh”. The problem of sin in human beings is not in the body, but in the carnal mind with which we are born.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16017
10/17/05 03:11 AM
10/17/05 03:11 AM
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OP
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Rosangela, I agree. The quotes you posted do say that Jesus combined His divinity and humanity and overcame temptations. I do not know what to make of it, except to say that the overwhelming weight of evidence supports the idea that Jesus trusted in the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome as a man, not as a God.
DA 664
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess [not gradually accumulate], if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}
Regarding the sinful flesh Jesus inherited when He became a human being, Sister White made the following observation:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Do you believe Jesus inherited the sinful flesh nature Sister White described above? That is, a fallen nature that produces corrupt thoughts, unholy lusts and affections, and animal passions and propensities?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16018
10/17/05 03:15 AM
10/17/05 03:15 AM
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Regarding Christ's divinity and humanity, or course Christ combined His divinity with our humanity. There's nothing else He could do. It has already been established that Christ did not obtain victory over temptation or power to obey the law by His own divinity. Correct? If He did, then He could not have disproved Satan's claims that the sons and daughters of God could not keep the law of God. If He used any power in His battle with Satan that we do not have, then Satan would have made capital of that; Satan's claims would not have been disproven. This has alread been discussed, and I take it these points have been demonstrated, unless I hear otherwise. Regarding Christ's taking our flesh, it is true that Christ took the likeness of sinful flesh, and not the unlikeness. To see how the word "likeness" is used in the Greek, consider the following: quote:
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Phil. 2:5-8)
Now was Christ only "like" a man, or was He actually a man? Of course He was a man. So why does the text say He was made in the "likeness" of man? Because while Christ was a man, that is not all He was. Christ was by nature divine. Christ was also sinless, and this respect different from every other man. So as to not give a wrong impression, Paul carefully uses the word "likeness", but this word "likeness" makes clear that Christ was actually man. In precisely the same way, in saying that Christ took the "likeness" of sinful flesh, Paul asserts that Christ partook of the very same flesh we have, which is what Ellen White and all her SDA contermporaries taught.
For example, this is from a sermon of W. W. Prescott:
quote:
"So you see that what the Scripture states very plainly is that Jesus Christ had exactly the same flesh that we bear—flesh of sin, flesh in which we sin; flesh, however, in which He did not sin. But He bore our sins in that flesh of sin. And what flesh could He take but the flesh of the time? Not only that, but it was the very flesh He designed to take; because, you see, the problem was to help man out of the difficulty into which he had fallen, and man is a free moral agent. He must be helped as a free moral agent. Christ's work must be, not to destroy him, not to create a new race, but...to recreate man, to.. restore him in the image of God."—W. W. Prescott, Bible Echo, January 6, 1896.
Ellen White heard this sermon, and said of it:
quote:
In the evening Professor Prescott gave a most valuable lesson, precious as gold. The tent was full, and many stood outside. All seemed to be fascinated with the word, as he presented the truth in lines so new to those not of our faith. Truth was separated from error, and made, by the divine Spirit, to shine like precious jewels. (RH 1/7/96)
Many more statements could be produced by colleagues of Ellen White, as well as statements by herself, showing that she, and all other SDA's who wrote on the subject, had the same understanding on the issue, which is just what Prescott presented.
This is already a long post, so I'll end it here, and consider separately the question of why EGW brings out the importance of Christ's uniting divinity and humanity.
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