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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16029
10/20/05 09:39 PM
10/20/05 09:39 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Let’s analyze, for instance, the temptation to smoke. After you became dependent on nicotine, of course your body plays a role in the temptation. But what role could your body play in the temptation to start smoking?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16030
10/21/05 03:32 AM
10/21/05 03:32 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't know about the genetic disposition towards smoking, but if you switch the example from smoking to alcohol, there are genetic dispositions to alcohol which are passed genetically. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing were true for smoking. Maybe somebody here knows the results of studies on this.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16031
10/21/05 09:03 AM
10/21/05 09:03 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh.
Is this what is considered to be true?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16032
10/21/05 10:30 AM
10/21/05 10:30 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John,
This is what most people say. Mike and Tom, if I understood correctly, share this view.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16033
10/21/05 10:57 AM
10/21/05 10:57 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
Even if in some there is a genetic predisposition, this clearly isn't the cause in all cases. Many times people start smoking just because of peer pressure.
Besides, we not only inherit, but also acquire, tendencies to evil.
"No longer let any evil influence or propensity, natural or acquired, lead you to subordinate the claims of future, eternal interests to the common affairs of this life. No man can serve two masters whose interests are not in harmony" (UL 313).
"Ask Him to give you the gentleness of Christ; then you will be true to your duty, true to your position of trust, and true to God, a faithful steward, overcoming natural and acquired tendencies to evil" (TM 263)
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16034
10/21/05 12:30 PM
10/21/05 12:30 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
This is what most people say. Mike and Tom, if I understood correctly, share this view.
I can see that Mike has expressed thoughts in that line, but I do not think Tom thinks that.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16035
10/21/05 06:35 PM
10/21/05 06:35 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh.
Speaking for myself, I don't think I've written anything even remotely like this. I have stated that we are tempted by the flesh. We cannot sin deliberately except by the consent of the will.
The 144,000 will overcome sin in sinful flesh, just as Christ did. Hence overcoming sin is not dependent upon our having sinless flesh. What will change when our flesh is changed is how we are tempted (there won't be any temptation).
The A. T. Jones article expresses the relationship between the flesh and the mind very clearly, I think. I agree with what A. T. Jones wrote.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16036
10/21/05 06:43 PM
10/21/05 06:43 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Even if in some there is a genetic predisposition, this clearly isn't the cause in all cases. Many times people start smoking just because of peer pressure.
Besides, we not only inherit, but also acquire, tendencies to evil.
This is correct. It should be clear that Christ had to have both inherited and acquired tendencies to evil in order to be tempted in all points as we are. And so He did. He had our acquired tendencies to evil by imputation, and our inherited tendencies to evil by taking our nature after 4,000 years of sin.
In the description of Christ's battle in the wilderness, the SOP makes clear that it was the imputed sin of the world (our acquired tendencies to evil) which made Christ's temptations so difficult. And this corresponds exactly with our experience. To use the example of smoking, what makes smoking a difficult temptation is not the inherited tendencies, but the acquired tendencies. One might be tempted to start smoking by peer pressure, or curiousity, or whatever, but the strength of these temptations is nothing compared to the strenght of the temptations upon the smoker to repeat doing what he has done before so many times. This is how it is with us. Our most difficult temptations are those which we have succumbed to so many time. It is *these* temptations which Christ had to overcome in order to give us victory.
The SOP makes clear that Christ felt the strength of our appetite, an appetite which includes acquired, or cultivated, tendencies as well as inherited ones. It is only by virtue of the fact that Christ overcame *our* temptations that we can have victory. We cannot do something which Christ has not done. He opened the door; we walk through the door by faith.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16037
10/21/05 07:42 PM
10/21/05 07:42 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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All this is OK, but what does the body have to do with starting smoking?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16038
10/21/05 07:50 PM
10/21/05 07:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't know if "body" is a good term to use, as that may imply the brain is not involved, which it certainly is. What we're dealing with is that which can be passed genetically. We are passed tendencies to be envious, to smoke, whatever. Out temptations include these tendencies which are passed genetically. Christ in taking our nature also had to deal with these genetically passed tendencies.
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