dedication - you must have missed the quotations I have given by EJ Waggoner, a man EGW knew very well!

The Cause of the Defeat

There was sin in the camp when Israel went up against Ai, and this was the cause of their defeat. The whole people suffered, not simply because of Achan's sin, but because all had sinned. "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith." [Habakkuk 2:4] Whether they were blinded by "the deceitfulness of sin," and then became exalted in their minds, or whether their self-exaltation led to their sin, is not material; certain it is that the people had given place to sin, and had become self-confident, which is in itself sin. Because of sin they suffered defeat; so long as sin was given a place in their hearts, they could not go on with the conquest of the land; and this again proves that the promised inheritance, into which God was leading them, was such as could be possessed only by righteous people--those who had the righteousness of faith. {1900 EJW, EVCO 381.1}

An Unwarranted Assumption

The men who went up to view the country made the people believe that but few men were needed to capture Ai, because it was a small city. But they had no ground for such an assumption. True, Ai was not nearly as large as Jericho, but numbers had nothing to do with the taking of that city. "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down;" and if the Israelites had been only half or even one-tenth as numerous as they were, the result would have been the same. It required the same power to take Ai that it did to take Jericho, namely, the power of God, laid hold of by faith. {1900 EJW, EVCO 381.2}

When the men said that but few of the people were needed for the capture of Ai, they assumed that it was their military skill that was to secure the land for them. But that was a grievous error. God had promised to give them the land, and it could not be obtained except as a gift. The mightiest army that the world has ever seen, armed with the most approved weapons of war, could not take it; while a few unarmed men, strong in faith and giving glory to God, could have possessed it with ease. The force that takes the kingdom of heaven is not the force of arms. {1900 EJW, EVCO 381.3}

Defeat not in God's Plan

Another thing that we learn from the story of Ai is that God did not intend that His people should ever suffer defeat, or that in the occupation of the land a single man should lose his life. In ordinary warfare the loss of thirty-six men in an assault upon a strongly fortified city would not be counted great, whether the assault were successful or not; but in taking possession of the land of Canaan it was a terrible reverse. The promise was, "Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you," and "there shall not any man be able to stand before thee," [Joshua 1:8; Joshua 1:5] and now they themselves had been obliged to flee, with the loss of men. The influence that the passage of the Jordan and the capture of Jericho would have had to impress and overawe the heathen, was now broken. Trusting to their own strength, the Israelites had lost the power of God's presence, and had demonstrated their own weakness. {1900 EJW, EVCO 382.1}

The Means of Defence

The fact that it was altogether contrary to God's plan that any of the Israelites should lose their lives in taking possession of the promised land, is further shown by the fact, which may well be noted here, that it was not His design that they should have to fight for the possession of the promised inheritance. We have already seen that numbers and arms had nothing to do with the taking of Jericho, and that when they depended on their weapons, force that in ordinary warfare would have been amply sufficient was of no avail. Recall also the wonderful deliverance from Egypt, and the overthrow of the entire army of Pharaoh, without the lifting of a single weapon or the use of any human power, and that God led the people by the longest and most difficult route in order that they might not see war (Exodus 13 : I8), and then read the following promise:-- {1900 EJW, EVCO 382.2}

"If thou shalt say in thine heart, These nations are more than I, how can I dispossess them? thou shalt not be afraid of them; but shalt well remember what the Lord thy God did unto Pharoah and to all Egypt; the great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the Lord thy God brought thee out; so shall the Lord thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid. Moreover, the Lord thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed. Thou shalt not be affrighted at them; for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." [Deuteronomy 7:17-21] {1900 EJW, EVCO 383.1}

God to Fight for His People

Just as the Lord did to Pharoah and to all Egypt, so did he promise to do to all the enemies that should set themselves against the progress of the Israelites to the promised land. But the children of Israel did not strike a single blow to effect their deliverance from Egypt and the overthrow of all its armies. When Moses, forty years before, had attempted to deliver Israel by physical force, he most signally failed, and was obliged to flee in disgrace. It was only when he knew the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation, that he was able to lead the people forth without any fear of the wrath of the king. This is conclusive proof that God did not design that they should fight for the possession of the land; and if they did not fight, of course they could not lose any of their number in battle. Read further as to the manner in which God proposed to give them the land:-- {1900 EJW, EVCO 383.2}

"I will send My fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land." [Exodus 23:27-30] {1900 EJW, EVCO 384.1}

God's Care for His Defenseless People

When Jacob, years before, sojourned in the same land, with his family, the "terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob." [Genesis 35:5] "When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong; yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; saying, Touch not Mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." [Psalms 105:15] That same power was to bring them into the land, and speedily give them an eternal inheritance in it, for afterward, the Lord, bewailing their unfaithness, said:-- {1900 EJW, EVCO 384.2}

"Oh that My people had hearkened unto Me, and Israel had walked in My ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto Him; but their time should have endured for ever." [Psalms 81:13-15] {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.1}

Why the Israelites Fought

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}

No, I didn't miss your comments on AI.

But it didn't address the question.
It skipped over the question and landed us in Ai, not in Jericho.

The battle of Jericho is a remarkable example of what God was willing to do for Israel -- they suffered no defeat -- angels pushed down the walls we are told. They were following in faith what God had commanded even though it was totally out of character with the strategies of warfare.

Yet even at Jericho God expected them to go into Jericho and destroy everyone, except Rahab and her family.
The battle didn't end when the walls came down.
They still had to dispose of the people within the city that God had "given into their hands".

Even when in later battles God sent the hornets, Israel was still to pursue the fleeing enemy.

Even with Gideon, though down to 300 men, and the Midianites killing each other in their confusion, Israel still had to pursue the fleeing enemy.

Now it's perfectly true -- in a world without sin, there is absolutely no fighting.
God never intended wars to take place, or anyone to die. That is not God's way. But sin entered, and sin must be stopped.

All the rationalization is just that -- rationalization.
It was God's intention to
1. Give the land to the Israelites
2. The inhabitants of the land were to be destroyed since their "cup of iniquity" was full (an evaluation only God can make) and He made it quite clear that this was to be done.
3. It really makes no difference to the general topic of this thread, whether they were destroyed by Israel, by a disaster, by angels hands, by whatever -- it was God's purpose to remove them.

So once again, all you (using Waggonner) say is -- it wasn't God's plan..... God simply tolerated Israel in their blindess.
But it WAS God's plan!

Of course that plan, once the land was theirs, included a victorious Israel living in the land and fully worshipping God, and sharing His message to all around-- a city set on a hill.
If they had stayed in their covenant relationship with God, there still would have been the initial wars, but then peace. God's plan was pretty spectacular for these people -- with all nations coming to them to hear about God.
But one of the reasons it didn't happen is because they STOPPED fighting way too soon, leaving idolatrous nations in the land, and started accepting Canaanite idolatry.

Well said, Dedication. I appreciate your well-reasoned and clearly-presented posts here. I could not have said it better.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You have not proven it was God plan. You also are using rationalization to come to your conclusion. I think Waggoner is spot on. To you, the end justifies the means. Killing is necessary to achieve peace. I guess Jesus was wrong about the do to others as you would have them do to you stuff. Satan's methods were right.

God described His plan clearly! Exodus 23:28-31 AKJV And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against you. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before you, until you be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red sea even to the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and you shall drive them out before you.

EGW is clear, it was not God's intended plan that they fight, God would go before them. But they refused, and in so doing, greatly increased their troubles. God continued to work with them as quoted in Waggoner above.

When they were at the first preparing to enter Canaan, the undertaking was attended with far less difficulty than now. God had promised His people that if they would obey His voice He would go before them and fight for them; and He would also send hornets to drive out the inhabitants of the land. The fears of the nations had not been generally aroused, and little preparation had been made to oppose their progress. But when the Lord now bade Israel go forward, they must advance against alert and powerful foes, and must contend with large and well-trained armies that had been preparing to resist their approach. {PP 436.4}

In their contest with Og and Sihon the people were brought to the same test beneath which their fathers had so signally failed. But the trial was now far more severe than when God had commanded Israel to go forward. The difficulties in their way had greatly increased since they refused to advance when bidden to do so in the name of the Lord. It is thus that God still tests His people. And if they fail to endure the trial, He brings them again to the same point, and the second time the trial will come closer, and be more severe than the preceding. This is continued until they bear the test, or, if they are still rebellious, God withdraws His light from them and leaves them in darkness. {PP 437.1}

By "base" I assume you mean - God is love. By "foundation" I assume you mean - God does not destroy. The truth is, however, you have refused to plainly explain your view of the lake of fire. You also refuse to repost links to websites that share your view. Again, it seems suspicious. By doing so you are delaying the successful conclusion of this very, very long thread. I suspect you believe the fire that kills sinners is symbolic of the emotional, spiritual suffering that causes them to die and the fire that burns their corpses is literal.

Kland, I have answered the following questions the way I think you believe. How did I do?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong? Wrong.

A man withdraws his protection and permits his damn to flood and kill people. Right or wrong? Wrong.

A man withdraws his protection and permits his fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong? Wrong.

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong? Right.

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits water to flood and kill people. Right or wrong? Right.

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong? Right.


You have yet to address this passage. It agrees with the questions posted above. Do you agree?

Actually I was questioning the pertinence of them. Shall we assume they are pertinent and related to what was being discussed because you say so? Shall we talk about something else and avoid what we were talking about because you say it's you who says it's "pertinent"?

After looking up and reading the texts, I think you were wondering if I was viewing God's "justice" as others here. I understand God's justice is not like man's and others here's "justice". What I was asking is, is this where justice is defined that can be shown to the others or is only mercy defined here. That is, do you see it as saying justice is "freedom of choice" and mercy is "opportunity for repentance" or is justice only mentioned by "maintained His law" and mercy defined as "freedom of choice and opportunity for repentance"?

kland - most here think of justice as administering punishment. The justice, the righteousness of God is God doing the right and correct thing. This is in giving freedom of choice with its inherent consequences. Often in the OT we see justice in righting wrongs. Doing justice is something you do to the afflicted, the fatherless. For the transgressor, justice is allowing them to have their choice. Mercy is overruling the consequences to allow for repentance. The same error is repeated today.

You believe I do not know the difference between right and wrong because I believe Jesus can punish people in ways we cannot. The quote below affirms my belief. You have refused to address the quote. I also posted questions whose obvious answers affirm my belief. However, you believe they are off topic or off point. Why?


You have yet to address this passage. Why not?