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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16039
10/21/05 08:00 PM
10/21/05 08:00 PM
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5500+ Member
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
You can't separate the mind from the brain. And acquired tendencies are not genetic.
About the other subject. Apart from the last generation, few Christians have completely overcome sin. Then I assume they will no longer sin in heaven because they will no longer be tempted, and you claim that they can no longer tempted because they are no longer in the flesh. And this is equivalent to what I said - or so it seems to me, in my practical way of seeing things - that they will no longer sin because they are no longer in the flesh.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16040
10/21/05 11:54 PM
10/21/05 11:54 PM
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quote:
You can't separate the mind from the brain. And acquired tendencies are not genetic.
The mind must be separated from the brain conceptually. The brain is the physical part. The mind deals with mental functions, not physical ones.
quote:
The mind is the term most commonly used to describe the higher functions of the human brain, particularly those of which humans are subjectively conscious, such as personality, thought, reason, memory, intelligence and emotion. Although other species of animals share some of these mental capacities, the term is usually used only in relation to humans.
quote:
(The brain is) that part of the central nervous system that includes all the higher nervous centers; enclosed within the skull; continuous with the spinal cord.
Acquired tendencies are not genetic. That is correct. The Spirit of Prophecy often refers to them as "cultivated."
quote:
About the other subject. Apart from the last generation, few Christians have completely overcome sin.
In the sense that the 144,000 will, none have. This is a corporate work, dependent upon light, and no other generation has the light the 144,000 have. In every generation are those who have lived up to light they had, Daniels of their time.
quote:
Then I assume they will no longer sin in heaven because they will no longer be tempted, and you claim that they can no longer tempted because they are no longer in the flesh. And this is equivalent to what I said - or so it seems to me, in my practical way of seeing things - that they will no longer sin because they are no longer in the flesh.
The reason no one will sin in heaven is because they do not want to. All beings there live by the principles of God's governement, which are the principles of unselfish love. Satan has had his opportunity to tempt, and each being in heaven has given their answer -- No!! If Satan were allowed to tempt, the answer would not change, just like if Satan, or those who have chosen to follow his principles, were allowed to live, they would not change their mind.
The important thing that will have happened between now and heaven is that humanity will have clearly seen the truth about God's character, which is that He is just like Jesus Christ. Every person will make a decision as to whether they want to spend eternity with Him or not. Whosoever will may come.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16041
10/22/05 10:01 PM
10/22/05 10:01 PM
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quote:
The mind must be separated from the brain conceptually.
OK, but if I got it correctly, what you are saying is that the first phase of temptation (related to sinful suggestions) has to do only with the brain, and the second phase (making the decision) has to do with the mind. Or have I got it wrong? Please clarify.
quote:
The reason no one will sin in heaven is because they do not want to.
So sinning has to do with the flesh here but it won’t have to do with the flesh there?
quote:
The important thing that will have happened between now and heaven is that humanity will have clearly seen the truth about God's character
So until the moment of their death Christians didn’t see this truth clearly, but the moment they resurrect they will see it clearly?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16042
10/23/05 02:23 AM
10/23/05 02:23 AM
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OP
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quote:
I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh.
Mike and Tom, if I understood correctly, share this view.
Just to clarify. I believe sin is in the flesh and in the mind of the old man. When we’re born again the sins in our old man mind are crucified and buried. However, sin remains in our flesh. That is, our flesh continues to tempt us with unholy suggestions. When Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and nature, we will no longer be tempted from within. Or from without, for that matter, because the devil will be dead and gone.
The reason we will not sin in heaven or the New Earth is not because we are incapable of sinning, but because we will not choose to sin. This same state is available to us now, in spite of being burdened with a fallen nature that constantly wants us to meet our innocent and legitimate needs in a sinful manner. We do not, and cannot, commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16043
10/23/05 07:20 AM
10/23/05 07:20 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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The mind must be separated from the brain conceptually.OK, but if I got it correctly, what you are saying is that the first phase of temptation (related to sinful suggestions) has to do only with the brain, and the second phase (making the decision) has to do with the mind. Or have I got it wrong? Please clarify. I didn't address this question.The reason no one will sin in heaven is because they do not want to.So sinning has to do with the flesh here but it won’t have to do with the flesh there? Why do you think I think sinning has to do with the flesh? I'm not understanding the confusion here. Did you read the A. T. Jones article? That seems very clear to me. I agree with what he wrote.The important thing that will have happened between now and heaven is that humanity will have clearly seen the truth about God's character.So until the moment of their death Christians didn’t see this truth clearly, but the moment they resurrect they will see it clearly? I don't understand how you're arriving at this conclusion. Clearly it's based on what I wrote, but I don't see how. The ones I was referring to who need to see God's character are the wicked, not Christians.
I had this in mind:
quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.
This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16044
10/23/05 12:04 PM
10/23/05 12:04 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
OK, but if I got it correctly, what you are saying is that the first phase of temptation (related to sinful suggestions) has to do only with the brain, and the second phase (making the decision) has to do with the mind. Or have I got it wrong? Please clarify.
I didn't address this question.
Tom, this is what you said:
quote:
By way of summary, I would say that the flesh contributes to our temptations, so in a sense could be seen as leading us into sin, but the mind (or spirit or heart or higher powers of the mind or will, depending on preference) makes the decision as to whether temptation will be yielded to or not.
What I said was that, in a temptation to start smoking, or to show pride, envy or hatred, the mind is related to it, not the body. (To make our discussion easier, let’s suppose that the person doesn’t have a genetic predisposition to any of these things.)
Then you replied:
quote:
I don't know if "body" is a good term to use, as that may imply the brain is not involved, which it certainly is.
You mentioned the brain. By this you mean the mind? This is the part I didn’t understand.
My position is that the word “flesh” involves not only the body but the mind. In fact, some sins don’t have to do with the body at all. Do you agree or disagree?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16045
10/23/05 04:05 PM
10/23/05 04:05 PM
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OP
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quote:
My position is that the word “flesh” involves not only the body but the mind. In fact, some sins don’t have to do with the body at all. Do you agree or disagree?
Rosangela, does your definition of the flesh agree with this one:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
She says, "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it." What do you think she means by lower passions? Do they originate in the mind or the body?
And, what about the "affections and lusts"? Do they, according to this insight, originate in the mind or the body?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16046
10/23/05 07:08 PM
10/23/05 07:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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You mentioned the brain. By this you mean the mind? This is the part I didn’t understand.
No, I meant the brain. The brain is a part of the body. The mind is an orthogonal concept.
My position is that the word “flesh” involves not only the body but the mind. In fact, some sins don’t have to do with the body at all. Do you agree or disagree?
I think the flesh involves that which is passed genetically. Christ took our flesh, but He had the mind of Christ. If our flesh encompassed the mind, then Christ's mind would have been impacted. But Christ's mind was not impacted, even though He took our flesh. So it seems to me there must be a distinction between the flesh and the mind. Otherwise how would we explain the fact that Christ partook of our flesh, yet not of our mind?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16047
10/25/05 03:22 AM
10/25/05 03:22 AM
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OP
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Here she describes the relationship between mind and body. In this case, body refers to tissue organs. But, as indicated in the AH 127, 128 quote above, the "flesh" is where our unholy carnal thoughts and affections and lusts originate.
FE 20, 21
To become acquainted with the wonderful human organism, the bones, muscles, stomach, liver, bowels, heart, and pores of the skin, and to understand the dependence of one organ upon another for the healthful action of all, is a study in which most mothers take no interest. They know nothing of the influence of the body upon mind, and of the mind upon the body. The mind, which allies finite to the infinite, they do not seem to understand. Every organ of the body was made to be servant to the mind. The mind is the capital of the body. Children are allowed to eat flesh-meats, spices, butter, cheese, pork, rich pastry, and condiments generally. They are also allowed to eat irregularly and between meals of unhealthful food. These things do their work of deranging the stomach, exciting the nerves of unnatural action, and enfeebling the intellect. Parents do not realize that they are sowing the seed which will bring forth disease and death. {FE 20.2}
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16048
10/25/05 01:15 PM
10/25/05 01:15 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
So, to you, temptations originate in the brain, not in the mind? In the temptation to start smoking (without any genetic predisposition), peer pressure or curiosity are related to the brain, not to the mind?
Mike,
A parallel text says,
"Our impulses and passions have their seat in the body" {RH, December 1, 1896 par. 7}
So “flesh” constitutes all our impulses and passions, our natural inclinations. Some of these inclinations are related to the body but some have to do with the mind, such as an inclination/impulse to be proud, envious, etc.
The text says that the words, "flesh", or "fleshly lusts" or "carnal lusts", embrace the lower, corrupt nature.
“That which is pleasing to the natural heart and carnal mind is cherished. If the lust of the flesh had been rooted out of their hearts, they would not be so weak.”{CH 570.3}
Ellen White says here that the lust of the flesh must be rooted out of the heart, meaning not the physical organ which pumps the blood, but the mind.
She still says,
“’He that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.’ What is it to sow to the flesh?--It is to follow the desires and inclinations of our own natural hearts. Whatever may be our profession, if we are serving self instead of God, we are sowing to the flesh.” {RH, May 5, 1891 par. 2}
She doesn’t say the desires and inclinations of our bodies, but of our hearts, that is, minds (because the mind is the capital of the body).
She still says,
“If we are overcomers at last, there are battles for us to fight, and we will find that the flesh warreth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. It is for us to say which will triumph. Our carnal hearts will not submit to God's will, but refuse to obey.” {2SAT 34.5}
So, I see “flesh” as the “carnal mind” or “carnal nature” or “carnal heart”.
When we are converted, this old nature, or mind, is crucified. However, it will constantly try to reassert itself:
“It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself.” {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 7}
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