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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: kland]
#160458
01/16/14 01:55 PM
01/16/14 01:55 PM
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SDA
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Midland
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Selfishness is the root of all sinning. Jesus set the standard. The law reflects it. Jesus employs fire and water to kill sinners. He also commands holy angels and righteous people to kill criminals and combatants. He even uses His enemies to kill sinners. There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160465
01/16/14 03:58 PM
01/16/14 03:58 PM
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Kland, I addressed your comment and question in the following way: K: There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?
M: Kland, you believe Jesus used the withdraw and permit principle of punishment in the OT. For example:
1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?
2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?
3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?
The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160466
01/16/14 04:00 PM
01/16/14 04:00 PM
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Both APL and Kland ignored this post and these passages: 1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}
2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160468
01/16/14 04:02 PM
01/16/14 04:02 PM
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Kland, since you agree with me (see below) please eplain our differences: Kland, please answer the following questions:
1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?
2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?
PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160469
01/16/14 04:06 PM
01/16/14 04:06 PM
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MM does not understand. Only the Spirit can convict him of the truth. God withdrawing his protection from the serpents was not an arbitrary punishment inflicted on the people. God was being rejected by the people. They called HIM their worst enemy. God can not remain where He is not wanted. "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." You are mistaken, APL. Jesus did not withdraw from Israel. He permitted the snakes to bite and kill targeted people. The rest of the people He protected.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160470
01/16/14 04:09 PM
01/16/14 04:09 PM
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The crystal sea (lake of fire)
The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1} The radiant brightness of God's presence flooding the whole the earth is the lake of fire. Murder makes the crystal sea become the lake of fire
“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; Isaiah 34:2; Psalms 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven [APL: All natural protective laws have been rejected by the mob] . The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2} Murder and self-acting nature turns the crystal sea into a lake of fire. APL, what is the lake of fire? It sounds like you are saying it is a mixture of 1) the radiant brightness of God's presence and 2) the blood of sinners.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160471
01/16/14 05:08 PM
01/16/14 05:08 PM
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Both APL and Kland ignored this post and these passages: 1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}
2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3} GC35-37 answers HOW this is done.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160487
01/17/14 03:22 AM
01/17/14 03:22 AM
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The lake of fire is literal fire that will burn up every trace of sin on this whole planet as well as everything in space surrounding the earth. 3 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. Though the very glory of God is a consuming fire to sin and sinners, it could also very well include a cause and effect catalyse. For we know the lost will have spent time marshalling and preparing for war against God's city. They come fully armed having been persuaded by satan that they could take the city by force. They are halted in their purposes by God vividly demonstrating all that was done to save them, and how they had rejected salvation. What do they do next? They acknowledge that God's sentence on them was just. Satan jumps up and starts screaming orders to attack, but now the people realize it is hopeless and turn on him and each other in rage with the "fury of demons". The fire that results may involve setting off of weapons of destruction, which they themselves had prepared. There will also be volcanic action (fire from beneath) and fire from above, there is no doubt that God makes sure the fire will do a thorough work of completely cleansing the earth and even the surrounding "heavens" of all traces of sin. Everything will be completely burned up -- (except the city and God's people inside) This fire is NOT the crystal sea. The "fire" mentioned in connection with the crystal sea is mentioned as a simile -- (as it were) painting a picture in our minds of the sparkling, brilliant glory of the scene, not of a literal burning fire devouring everything in its path. Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," The bottom line in all this is -- God is perfectly righteous in all His doings. "Longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come....
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: dedication]
#160489
01/17/14 03:47 AM
01/17/14 03:47 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Read what the Bible says about the what happens to sinners.
Isaiah 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Isaiah 52:13-15 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonished at you; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
You will note who is being spoken about in the 3rd reference.
Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160496
01/17/14 03:30 PM
01/17/14 03:30 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Kland, I addressed your comment and question in the following way: K: There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?
M: Kland, you believe Jesus used the withdraw and permit principle of punishment in the OT. For example:
1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?
2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?
3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?
The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh. MM, I asked, "Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"? I don't see how your response addresses this in any way.
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