FWIW, I don't see the flesh as the same thing as the "carnal mind", "carnal nature" or "carnal heart". The flesh has to do with that which is passed genetically, and I don't see how a carnal mind can be passed genetically.

We can say of Christ that He partook of our flesh, but Christ did not have a carnal mind, heart, or nature.

We do not inherit the character that Adam developed as he reacted and responded to the unholy clamorings of his flesh. The only thing we inherit from our parents, dating all the way back to Adam, is their sinful flesh nature. The unholy traits of character they developed is passed on to us genetically in the form of sinful flesh nature - not character.

"The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts." {AH 127)

1. What is it that the flesh can do?

2. What is it the flesh cannot do?

3. Where do our lusts and affections originate?

4. What is the difference between "carnal mind" and "carnal lusts"?

1T 440
The requirements of God's word are too close for their unsanctified natures. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." If the feelings of the natural heart are not restrained and brought into subjection by the sanctifying influence of the grace of God received through the channel of faith, the thoughts of the heart are not pure and holy. The conditions of salvation brought to view in the word of God are reasonable, plain, and positive, being nothing less than perfect conformity to the will of God and purity of heart and life. We must crucify self with the lusts thereof. We must cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. {1T 440.1}

CH 570
Vainglory, the fashion of the world, the desire of the eye, and the lust of the flesh, are connected with the fall of the unfortunate. That which is pleasing to the natural heart and carnal mind is cherished. If the lust of the flesh had been rooted out of their hearts, they would not be so weak. {CH 570.3}

2T 694
Those who possess the carnal mind cannot comprehend the sacred force of vital truth upon which their salvation depends, because they cherish pride of heart, love of the world, love of ease, selfishness, covetousness, envy, jealousy, lust, hatred, and every evil. If they would overcome these they might be partakers of the divine nature. {2T 694.1}

AH 330, 331
The mind of a man or woman does not come down in a moment from purity and holiness to depravity, corruption, and crime. It takes time to transform the human to the divine, or to degrade those formed in the image of God to the brutal or the satanic. By beholding we become changed. Though formed in the image of his Maker, man can so educate his mind that sin which he once loathed will become pleasant to him. As he ceases to watch and pray, he ceases to guard the citadel, the heart, and engages in sin and crime. The mind is debased, and it is impossible to elevate it from corruption while it is being educated to enslave the moral and intellectual powers and bring them in subjection to grosser passions. Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained; and we must be aided by the refining influence of the grace of God, which will attract the mind upward and habituate it to meditate upon pure and holy things. {AH 330.2}

It sounds like we are stuck with the carnal mind (i.e., sinful flesh nature) until Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one. The lusts and affections, which reside within our carnal mind/flesh nature, will continue to tempt us with evil thoughts and feelings until the day Jesus returns. In the meantime, we must abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature so that He empower us to resist the our carnal mind/flesh nature.

What you quoted did not speak of the carnal mind, but rather of traits which can be passed genetically. A carnal mind is developed by exercising one's will against God's will.

Take Christ as an example. He did not have a carnal mind. But His flesh was our flesh.

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The Scripture does not say, Be ye transformed by the renewing of your flesh, but it does say, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." Rom. 12:2. We shall be translated by the renewing of our flesh, but we must be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

The Lord Jesus took the same flesh and blood, the same human nature, that we have, flesh just like our sinful flesh, and because of sin, and by the power of the Spirit of God through the divine mind that was in Him, "condemned sin in the flesh." Rom. 8:3. And therein is our deliverance (Rom. 7:25); therein is our victory. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." "A new heart will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you."

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This is from the last part of the A. T. Jones article.

From the Spirit of Prophecy:

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There were in him (unfallen Adam) no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

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Christ had the same corrupt principles and tendencies to evil in His flesh as we do, unlike unfallen Adam. However, His mind never was tainted by the tendencies of the flesh because He never consented to those temptations. He condemned sin in the flesh by holding it at bay, by perfect subjection to His Father's will.

Again, from the A. T. Jones article:

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Conversion, then, you see, does not put new flesh upon the old spirit but a new Spirit within the old flesh. It does not propose to bring new flesh to the old mind, but a new mind to the old flesh. Deliverance and victory are not gained by having the human nature taken away, but by receiving the divine nature to subdue and have dominion over the human--not by the taking away of the sinful flesh, but by the sending in of the sinless Spirit to conquer and condemn sin in the flesh.

The Scripture does not say, Let this flesh be upon you which was also upon Christ, but it does say, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil. 2:5.

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I found the whole A. T. Jones article to be very clear. Do you disagree?

MM: You and I are seeing this pretty much the same, just a difference in terminology regarding the carnal mind, it seems to me. You are understanding "carnal mind" to be synonymous with "sinful nature".

This isn't a big deal to me, but I'm curious if you would be comfortable saying that Christ took our carnal mind. I would be uncomfortable saying that, even though, with your understanding of "carnal mind" and "sinful nature" being synonymns, it would mean exactly the same thing as saying, "Christ took our sinful nature" which I believe is correct, not only conceptually but as to how it should be stated.

We say things like Christ took our sin, as well as saying He took our nature, so maybe saying He took our carnal mind isn't a problem (although, it sounds funny to me). One would certainly need to make clear, as well as with the sinful nature statements, that we are not saying that Christ in any way sinned.

Mike,

Yes, the carnal mind is crucified when we are born again, but it must continue to be crucified day by day and hour by hour, because it will constantly try to reassert itself. As Ellen White says, “constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained”.

Tom,

The key element of the carnal mind is selfishness. A carnal mind is a selfish mind, and our tendencies to sin are just selfish tendencies.

"The natural, selfish mind, as it exists in its carnal state, acts without reference to God, and is evil, and only evil, continually." {ST, June 22, 1888 par. 8}

But selfishness is a satanic element, and I don’t believe Christ had a satanic element in Himself.

“When man sinned, all heaven was filled with sorrow; for through yielding to temptation, man became the enemy of God, a partaker of the satanic nature. The image of God in which he had been created was marred and distorted. The character of man was out of harmony with the character of God; for through sin man became carnal, and the carnal heart is enmity against God, is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 6}

Are we born reflecting God's image? No, of course not. And why not? Because we are selfish.

The key element of the carnal mind is selfishness. A carnal mind is a selfish mind, and our tendencies to sin are just selfish tendencies.

"The natural, selfish mind, as it exists in its carnal state, acts without reference to God, and is evil, and only evil, continually." {ST, June 22, 1888 par. 8}

But selfishness is a satanic element, and I don’t believe Christ had a satanic element in Himself.

Right, Christ did not have a satanic element in Himself, just in His flesh:

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh. (BE 9/3/00)

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The "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" were not in Christ, but in His flesh. Christ took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature. His sinless nature was selfless. He crucified our flesh by subjecting it at all times to the will of the Father, even unto death, the death of the cross.

Christ partook of the same flesh we do, but His mind was not contaminated by our flesh, because Christ never consented to sin. Because Christ's mind was always subject to God's will, Christ received no pollution by accepting the results, like the following:

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The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison permeated his whole body. The disciples sought to prevent their Master from touching him; for he who touched a leper became himself unclean. But in laying His hand upon the leper, Jesus received no defilement. His touch imparted life-giving power. The leprosy was cleansed. Thus it is with the leprosy of sin,--deep-rooted, deadly, and impossible to be cleansed by human power. "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores." Isa. 1:5, 6. But Jesus, coming to dwell in humanity, receives no pollution.(DA 266)

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