Symbols???

The text doesn't say anything about a church denomination it simply says

"the servants of our God" are to be sealed

by bringing in a second fulfilment of Ezekiel nine's sealing work (the first fulfilment was for the actual city of Jerusalem back in Ezekiel's time) you are already dealing in symbolic language. For you now see "Jerusalem" as symbolic of the "SDA church".


If Jerusalem is symbolic for the SDA church when the text simply says "servants of God".
Why couldn't the number 144,000 be symbolic?

And how do you explain
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben
12,ooo from the tribe of Judah
12,000 from the tribe of Levi
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph
etc. etc.
without seeing symbolism there?

Number literal.
Tribe name symbolic.

It's too regular to be literal -- like filling 12 cartoons of eggs.

I don't believe God is filling cartoons of eggs where everything has to be the exact same number, but rather sealing everyone who comes to Him to be cleansed and redeemed.

The regular numbering shows all have equal opportunity.

Though what are the tribe names symbolic for?

I read in one book that each tribe refers to people having character traits akin to one of the sons of Jacob. Thus the sealed ones are symbolic of every type of personality. It's quite an interesting study.

But two miss out -- Dan (a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that bits the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward) and the largest tribe Ephraim (who joined himself to his idols).

Ellen White makes clear that the SDA church is the Israel of today (Test. vol.9, p.164). Explain what that quote means to you? Show me a quote from EGW where she says that the world (or outside denominations) is the Israel of today.

If this is fact, then are we do know how it all breaks down (12K from each tribe, etc.) when inspiration does not tell us that? That is something that we aren't shown.

Also let us not forget that EGW said to "strive with all power God has given us to be among the 144,000".What does that quote mean to you?

I concur on your first part--number literal. The second is explained as follows. In one of the OT Scriptures it says something to the effect, "The Lord will count the people, and say"this man is from there and that man is from there" (I can't find it now) But the Lord has kept track of each of His tribes. The seed has been followed. So when we know that the SDA church is Israel today, then we must know that certain individuals are direct descendants of those tribes. For us it's impossible not so with God. Hence when it says that 12,000 come from each tribe it means just that. We all know that the original early Christians dispersed into the world and the original seed has been assimilated into the world.

Found it--"And of Zion it will be said, "This one and that one were born in her;And the Most High Himself shall establish her, The Lord will record, when He registers the peoples: This one was born there." (Psalms 87:5-6)

What is the Biblical meaning of Israel?

1. Originally it was the name given to Jacob.
Gen. 32:28 "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel:

2. The name later was applied to Jacob's descendants -- the twelve tribes stemming from Jacob.

3. Jesus is the true Israel

Matt. 2:15 Out of Egypt have I called my son." Notice that Matthew is quoting Hosea 11:1, which originally referred to the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt, yet now he declares it "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ!

Another example is where God called Israel "the seed of Abraham." Isaiah 41:8. Yet Paul later wrote that Abraham's seed does not refer to "many," but to "one, ... which is Christ." Galatians 3:16

4. All who are in Christ are now Israel.

Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All the sealed in Rev. 7 belong to group four.

Let's pray that Seventh-day Adventists are part of Israel.



But the statement/question was about Jerusalem.

Yes, there are quotes that connect Jerusalem's destruction with the destruction of the world.




To strive to be among the 144,000 means we are to study and pray that we be so settled in Christ and in truth that we will not be moved.

Sorry brother, I see only symbolical meaning here from you and your spin on the quotes. Won't be able to address you further as we are not on the same page. One is being guided by the Spirit of Truth one is not, we shall soon see.

Very good question and the answer is yes, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit SEALED the waiting disciples on the day of Pentecost.


"In the work that was accomplished on the day of Pentecost, we may see what can be done by the exercise of faith. Those who believed in Christ were sealed by the Holy Spirit. As the disciples were assembled together, “there came a sound ... as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” And Peter stood up among them and spoke with mighty power. Among those who listened to him were devout Jews, who were sincere in their belief. But the power that accompanied the words of the speaker convinced them that Christ was indeed the Messiah. What a mighty work was accomplished! Three thousand were converted in one day." {6BC 1055.7}

"It is with an earnest longing that I look forward to the time when the events of the day of Pentecost shall be repeated with even greater power than on that occasion. John says, “I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.” Then, as at the Pentecostal season, the people will hear the truth spoken to them, every man in his own tongue. {6BC 1055.5}
God can breathe new life into every soul that sincerely desires to serve Him, and can touch the lips with a live coal from off the altar, and cause them to become eloquent with His praise. Thousands of voices will be imbued with the power to speak forth the wonderful truths of God’s Word. The stammering tongue will be unloosed, and the timid will be made strong to bear courageous testimony to the truth. May the Lord help His people to cleanse the soul temple from every defilement, and to maintain such a close connection with Him that they may be partakers of the latter rain when it shall be poured out (The Review and Herald, July 20, 1886). {6BC 1055.6}

The 144,000 are those who come from the path that God has lead the Seventh Day Adventist Chrurch. We will cry with a loud voice and the whole world will hear the message then the "Vast Multitude which no man could number" are lead out of Babylon and they become part of the same group of believers proclaiming the same message as the 144,000, but as to having the same prerogatives of the original 144,000, I do not believe they all gain the same glory.

Peter and the 120 in the upper room were blessed with special blessings because they were ready for the early rain, and in one day 3000 stars were added to the crown that Jesus will hand him in heaven before he throws it at the feet of Jesus.

The 144,000 make it through the great time of tribulation, but I do not believe the vast multitude will make it, they will be martyred. Only the 144,000 will stand when all who have fallen in Christ are resurrected. So to make it concise, only the 144,000 will be translated without seeing death. They go through an experience that no one else gets to see.

At the mount of Transfiguration...

"Moses was present to represent those who will be raised from the dead at the second appearing of Jesus. And Elijah, who was translated without seeing death, represented those who will be changed to immortality at Christ’s second coming and will be translated to heaven without seeing death. The disciples beheld with astonishment and fear the excellent majesty of Jesus and the cloud that overshadowed them, and heard the voice of God in terrible majesty, saying, “This is My beloved Son; hear Him.” {EW 164.3}

"By faith Enoch “was translated that he should not see death, ... for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Hebrews 11:5. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be “redeemed from the earth” (Revelation 14:3) at Christ’s second advent. Then, as before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God’s people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ. Like Enoch they will warn the world of the Lord’s second coming and by their holy example will condemn the sins of the ungodly. As Enoch was translated to heaven, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire. See 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. {EP 49.4}

"The experience of Enoch and of John the Baptist represents what ours should be. Far more than we do, we need to study the lives of these men—he who was translated to heaven without seeing death, and he who, before Christ’s first advent, was called to prepare the way of the Lord, to make His paths straight. {8T 329.2}

Enoch didn't die, John did. Two classes like Moses and Elijah.

The vast multitude which the 144,000 call out of Babylon are symbolized by Moses who was resurrected and the 144,000 are symbolized by Elijah.

Another way of looking at it - the number is too specific to be symbolic. Also, in the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation the number is always literal and the thing associated with it is always symbolic. No exceptions.