12,000, 144,000 is too specific?

Could you show why you have that opinion?

"Always, no exceptions". I've been educated that whenever you see a statement that contains "always", that statement is always wrong. Including this statement.

Please show why you think such numbers are always literal. Because I think you are wrong, but need some guidelines before pointing out places which would contradict that opinion.

"To get a picture of how few will be prepared for the end time sealing, how few will receive the proof of confidence from God, only Caleb and Joshua made it to the promised land. The rest died in the wilderness. Many of those who fell were redeemed, but only the two had kept His confidence the whole time."

Yes James, that is pointed history we must remember. Just look at God's history for His dealing with humanity. Yes, God is merciful but if you ignore His prophets , the doom comes upon you, no if's , but's , or maybes! Here is the two great examples.

Case 1) Noah preached many many years, yet received scorn and mocking-- result 8 people saved from the millions upon the earth.

Case 2) As you mentioned, the exodus out of Egypt, with possibly a million or more. They steadfastly refused to listen to His prophet--Moses. Result -- Only TWO adults over 20 (accountability) were not struck down and made it to the promised land--Joshua and Caleb.

We see that the common denominator is that they ignored His prophets. This is quite offensive to Him. So what are we doing if we say "I don't believe His prophet John, when he says only 144,000 get sealed from ALL the tribes of Israel"?

As EGW says, we should take the Bible as it reads. The 144,000 is--144,000. No guess work here. The "ALL" is--all, no guess work here. The "Israel" is God's end time people--no guess work here. Ellen White says the the SDA church is --Israel of today, no guess work here. Let those with a lack of the "Spirit of Truth" sprout off, don't fall for their meandering trap.

Finally, please be very careful not to engage today's --Pharisees. Ellen White says, "There are some who indulge in levity, sarcasm, and even mockery toward those who differ from them. Others present an array of objections to any new view; and when these objections are plainly answered by the words of the scripture, they do not acknowledge the evidence presented, nor allow themselves to be convinced.

Their questioning is not for the purpose of arriving at truth, but is intended merely to confuse the minds of others. Some have thought it an evidence of intellectual keenness and superiority to perplex minds in regard to what is truth. They resort to subtlety of argument, to playing upon words; they take the unjust advantage in asking questions.

When their questions have been answered, they will turn the subject and bring up another point to avoid acknowledging the truth. We should BEWARE of indulging the spirit which controlled the Jews." (Test. to Ministers page 108-109)

One thing I've learned and the Spirit has ex-pressingly told me, don't engage a Pharisaical spirit as it will be as "casting your pearls before the swine".

Nice to meet you Godsloveandlaw, my name is Brother James Tierney. Peace in the name of Jesus.

I was inspired by God how to deal with mini skirts in the sanctuary. I hand my jacket to such young women in churches around the country. No need to say anything, just with a loving look of acceptance hand her the jacket and say "in case your legs are cold" and that is all that needs to be said. If she is lead by the Spirit she will see the love in the subtle rebuke without feeling the sting of embarassment, which is where we usually lose people when doing the right thing on our own, without God's help. I gained the respect of these women instead of hurting them. God gives that kind of wisdom for us to share. It works, try it some time. To be Divinely magnanomous is the humility of Christ is the greatest level of wisdom. There's a time for war, and a time for peace... You sound very wise, I just thought I would share.

Now if that same woman walked up to the pulpit to read the word, then we would have a conflict, hahahaha. When God inspires me to get to conflict level intervention it is always with someone who claims to be a teacher of truth who is not walking the walk or teaching lies. He has me respond completely different to new believers and those who admit being uninspired.

I'm looking foreward to picking your brain Godsloveandlaw... I love to learn about Christ and His word, and someone with your level of understanding is bound to know something we could all learn from.

The trouble is -- lawandlove has NOT plainly answered any objections.
The objections were not "sarcam" but looking at scripture and inspirational writings and seeing huge contradictions in what is being presented here.

Under the cloak of a very important message (the urgency of committing to Christ, forsaking sin, and finding salvation in Him for time is short) there is another whole stream of things that are very questionable.

We are to test the spirits and not believe everyone who comes with some message.

James, you are not on the same page as loveandlaw.
He would have hauled the young lady off and told her she was not to come back unless she dressed properly.
You are right-- such an approach has driven off many a young person confused by the world but still having a searching heart.

You are attracted to loveandlaw because he has cloaked his message with an important truth of the urgency of our time to forsake sin, but there is a lot more to his message.
--Like saying the 144,000 are all literal descendants of Jacob(God having watched where his "seed" went after the dispersal) -- thus making Jacob the source of salvation rather than "all who are in Christ are the seed of Abraham and the inheritors of his promises".

His teachings so far all line up with Shepherd Rod teachings -- you can go to the Shepherd Rod site and read the same thing. I asked him a further question to see if he followed that line. He has not denied the connection.

After just a few Bible based question he immediately turns to condemning the questioner and calling them names (Pharisees) and refuses to answer.

Wrong accusations--
I believe John when he writes "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

I simply don't believe the sealing happens at the same point in time as the close of probation which takes place when Christ leaves the sanctuary.

You say Israel is the church.
Earlier you said it was the literal "seed" of Jacob which God was careful to watch where it went when Israel was dispersed.

But biblically (according to Bible prophets) ISRAEL is --

All who are in Christ "abiding in Him" "they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

Why do you think EGW in her statements is referring to everyone whose name is in a membership list in the SDA church?

It's not the church that makes anyone part of "true Israel" but if they are abiding in Christ, keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus then they are part of "true Israel".

Yes, the church has made that it's motto, thus its aim is to be part of Israel. But the church itself does not make one part of Israel.

Jerusalem and Israel are not one and the same thing.

Our "city" is the NEW JERUSALEM, those who are sealed have THAT city written upon their foreheads.

The old Jerusalem over in Palestine no longer represents God's people -- nor will the old city ever be the home of God's people ever again. We are looking for a heavenly city, the new Jerusalem, built without hands that will descend from heaven after the 1000 years.

I gave several quotes showing the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem foreshadows the destruction of the world.

Also the endtime fulfilment of Ezekiel nine's "slaughter" takes place at that final destruction when the lost turn upon the religious leaders for deceiving them into disobedience of God's law.

Read it for yourself in Great Controversy pages 654-656.
Especially page 656 paragraph 2.

Good to meet you brother James.

You said - "I was inspired by God how to deal with mini skirts in the sanctuary. I hand my jacket to such young women in churches around the country. No need to say anything, just with a loving look of acceptance hand her the jacket and say "in case your legs are cold" and that is all that needs to be said."

I think that is an excellent way to make the point, as well as showing God you are sighing and crying. I think this says volumes on your walk before Him. Instead of not only "talking" you are "doing" , praise the Lord!

"Now if that same woman walked up to the pulpit to read the word, then we would have a conflict, hahahaha. When God inspires me to get to conflict level intervention it is always with someone who claims to be a teacher of truth who is not walking the walk or teaching lies. He has me respond completely different to new believers and those who admit being uninspired."

Again that makes some good Spiritual sense. The "teachers and preachers" are the ones who need the firmer medicine. After all we really want them to come out of their coma, which as we know is prevalent among our people.

What I find very important is that a brother or sister who is WILLING to learn is like a breath of fresh air, they breath life into us spiritually speaking. When I have to rebuke or kindly admonish and they say, "gee bro, I see your point thanks for this and the Scripture or SOP." I know they are not those who "have need of nothing" or see themselves as rich and increased with goods (have all the truth).

Recently, I spoke to a brother after church and for some reason I was led to show him Nehemiah. I mentioned what he thought about buying gas on the Sabbath (if he needed to get to church)? He said, "yeah I do it sometimes". Then after showing him Nehemiah, the parts about not buying and selling, he said, "wow, I never knew that was in the Bible, guess I'm going to have to quit that." All we can do is to help them see the necessity of revival and reformation. God isn't carelessly having His angels put that seal in people's foreheads.

"At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and I will punish the men who are complacent, those who say in their hearts, ‘The LORD will not do good, nor will he do evil." (Zeph. 1:12)

I look forward to the studies with you as well. Please feel free to ask any question you have, I'm always willing to share what the Lord has given me to someone who is humble and willing to listen. I'm learning as well and can always be advancing in His truth from you and others as the Lord leads.

Very good Godsloveandlaw.

I just found this short 8 minute Youtube video that spells out the final events quite good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19D77kMv...Z0wE6dovmRBHrsg

The sealing for the 144,000 happens first, those who are not prepared for the outpouring of the latter rain fall away from the church and the faithful from other denominations hear the loud cry from the 144,000 and they come out of Babylon THEN the end of probation comes.

So the end of probation and the throwing down of the Censor happans when EVERYONE has been sealed.

The sealing is progressive but it ends with the end of probation, when all the wicked remain wicked still and the righteous remain righteous still.