Oh! I see. Hm - could God have stopped Satan in the beginning, thus sparing us all this pain??? What does inspiration say?

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

Moderized:
Satan’s representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. These murmurings and complaints were groundless. Yet God allowed Satan to work out his theories. He could have handled Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by this He would have given a precedent for the violence of human beings that is so abundantly shown in our world in the compelling principles. {CTr 13.4}

The Lord’s principles are not of this order. All the compelling power is to be found under Satan’s government. God would not work in this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, and cause him mental or physical suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan’s creation. . . . {CTr 13.5}

The people had rejected God. Freewill means He must leave.

I know I've written this before -- but I see these arguments as two opposing poles, while truth lies somewhere in the middle.

1. All suffering, disease, pain, evil, death are the result of sin.
God allows sin to demonstrate its horribleness for if He didn't, people would think sin is fun, or the way to be successful etc. So God must allow sin to run its course. There is truth to the fact that God steps back and allows sin to run its course.

However -- God allows it to go so far, and no further, there must be room for righteousness to grow. God uses a variety of ways to stop evil.
--letting sin go to its natural consequence, or more often to a partial consequence as it is still under His control.
-- a direct intervention

This is not "using force" to get someone to obey unwillingly. But rather a controlling of the evil forces to give people a chance to learn about good and willingly choose salvation.


Instead of trying to fit God into our little boxes, why not simply trust Him



2. Those snakes are a favorite on this thread -- coming up time and time.
At creation snakes were not poisonous, in fact they were surprisingly beautiful -- flying serpents. Satan used a snake to bring sin into the world. The snake is often seen as a symbol of Satan and the occult.
Interestingly satan managed to give some snakes a lethal weapon to cause death.

There are many poisonous snakes in the Arabian desert and God did protect Israel from them.

Near the end of their 40 years in the wilderness, Israel again started bitterly complaining about the Lord's leading. "We're all going to die out here, and we hate this old manna."

How was God going to show them how lovingly He had provided for them? By introducing them to the things He had protected them from! The Bible says God sent the snakes. We can argue forever what that means -- but it obviously means that in the camp (where there had never been poisonous snakes before) now suddenly there were a lot of them! And a lot of people were dying.

Then God does a marvellous thing. An object lesson of great importance. A look to a bronze snake on a cross brought instant healing.
A symbol of Christ, taking our sins, and dying on the cross that we might live.


3. The whole question of why is there so much misery in this world puts a whole different perspective on these things. The terrible things on this planet didn't come as "punishment from God" but rather as the result of mankind's combined sinful choices.

Yet, God does deliver and does step in, in miraculous ways to stop the evil.
For example -- Satan was determined to stop the reformation.
When the Spanish Armada was heading for England, the odds were highly in favor on the Spanish side -- England was going to fall, and Catholic rule re-established with force. The pope issued an excommunication bull against Queen Elizabeth the first, because she was a supporter of "heretics." The "invincible armada" was going to restore the papal power in England.
But God intervened, and I believe it was more than simply "removing His protection", the winds and waves obeyed His command and the mighty Armada was scattered.

Yes, we can trust in God -- for indeed He is still in control.

He is in the business of saving for eternity as many people as possible.

But if you believe EGW, then there is no need to argue.


Combined with:
A number here advocate that God kills, God sends diseases, God tortures. God does none of these things. They are all caused by sin, and only overruled by God for purposes of mercy. The lesson of Jobs shows this.

The key phrase, "I believe". That great. But is it only an opinion, a belief. Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70. And why Jerusalem destroyed? Read the first part of this paragraph...

And can it likewise be said taht your response shows where you are in your walk of faith and you cannot see it?

Wait! It's not me, but you and others believing God acts like a dictator!

From http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/pakistans-blasphemy-laws

Ahmad proclaimed that God had appointed him the imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah4 whose advent was foretold in the Holy Koran and in the Hadith (recorded sayings) of the prophet Muhammad. What particularly incensed Muslims of his day (and to this day) was that he forbade the Jihad of the sword (to convert people to Islam or wage offensive wars),5 replacing it instead with the Jihad of the pen.6 The motto of the community he founded is: “Love for All—Hatred for None.” Despite intense, often violent and deadly persecution by other Muslims, the number of Ahmadis in the world continues to increase.
...
Why all this hatred against Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the Ahmadis? The answer has to do with what Muslims expect from the imam Mahdi.
...
Generally speaking, Muslims believe that what will follow after that won’t be peace and love, but war and bloodshed—the “bloody imam” concept—to restore the worldly power and material glory of Islam through the conquest and destruction of its enemies (the Christians and Jews, primarily). Because the Ahmadiyya Community founder’s mission was decidedly nonviolent, nonpolitical, and focused entirely on spiritual and moral reformation, it’s easy to see why the extremist Muslim clerics and their followers (from the late nineteenth century to the present day) have always been so opposed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his followers.

Hmmm....The Muslim terrorists are opposed to those who believe their prophet was one of peace and not of violence. Sound familiar?


From http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/killing-words

Blasphemy laws themselves are the key issue. No matter what god the majority population in a country chooses to worship, making dissent by minority faiths a criminal offense is a terrible idea, for all kinds of reasons. To suggest that your god is happy to rule by coercion, happy to attempt to force people to follow through any means necessary—even torture or death—is beyond folly.

Beyond folly!

I wouldn't say this is the end result of such views about their god, but this is an example of the beginning result of one who holds such views about their god. Coercion, force, torture, death. How you view your god is how you treat others. If you view your god as hurting and harming others, you will push for laws to hurt and harm others. Or do it yourself.

You like Satan have accused God to be a "dictator" because of the order of heaven.



The whole argument of Satan was that God's laws are tyranical. He took the truth and twisted it to confuse others, to believe that since the righteousness of God destroys sin and those who refuse to repent, God is a tyrant.

The reason what you are doing is the exact same thing is because you have the same argument. You have twisted the words of God to make it look like God could not possibly be just in destroying the wicked, which has the same leverage against God as what Satan argued.

You totally discount 1/2 of all the information on the subject.

Tell me, what lesson can you learn from this story?



You would take away the power of this bible story in how you view God.

In case you don't see the importance of the quote I was inspired to use, the children of God were about to enter the promissed land, and Balaam sends beautiful heathen women into the camp to entice the men to worship Baalpeor. This will be fulfilled again in the last days in a more subtle way...

"Nearly all forms of ancient sorcery and witchcraft were founded upon a belief in communion with the dead. Those who practiced the arts of necromancy claimed to have intercourse with departed spirits, and to obtain through them a knowledge of future events. This custom of consulting the dead is referred to in the prophecy of Isaiah: “When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?” Isaiah 8:19. {PP 684.1}
This same belief in communion with the dead formed the cornerstone of heathen idolatry. The gods of the heathen were believed to be the deified spirits of departed heroes. Thus the religion of the heathen was a worship of the dead. This is evident from the Scriptures. In the account of the sin of Israel at Bethpeor, it is stated: “Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor.” Numbers 25:1-3. The psalmist tells us to what kind of gods these sacrifices were offered. Speaking of the same apostasy of the Israelites, he says, “They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead” (Psalm 106:28); that is, sacrifices that had been offered to the dead. {PP 684.2}
The deification of the dead has held a prominent place in nearly every system of heathenism, as has also the supposed communion with the dead. The gods were believed to communicate their will to men, and also, when consulted, to give them counsel. Of this character were the famous oracles of Greece and Rome. {PP 684.3}
The belief in communion with the dead is still held, even in professedly Christian lands. Under the name of spiritualism the practice of communicating with beings claiming to be the spirits of the departed has become widespread. It is calculated to take hold of the sympathies of those who have laid their loved ones in the grave. Spiritual beings sometimes appear to persons in the form of their deceased friends, and relate incidents connected with their lives and perform acts which they performed while living. In this way they lead men to believe that their dead friends are angels, hovering over them and communicating with them. Those who thus assume to be the spirits of the departed are regarded with a certain idolatry, and with many their word has greater weight than the word of God. {PP 684.4}

So if Phinehas "turned my wrath away from the children of Israel" by putting a javelin through the bodies of a man and woman having sexual intercourse in front of Moses and the congregation, and this story is recorded as a figure of the future intercourse between believers and those who worship the dead, then what kind of message would put the javelin through their bellies to stay God's wrath against the church?

The way you view the role of God in this story takes away the power of the message and you have no clue what you are doing.

APL and Kland believe everything must be interpreted to mean God withdraws His restraining hand and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to murder. No matter what anyone else says, no matter which passages they post they will either mock, ridicule, and chide it, or they will ignore, reject, and dismiss it.

This discussion has played itself out. Everything that can be said has already been posted.

Interesting MM - do you not do the same thing? Ignore, reject, dismiss, ...? Yep. The big problem you have is that you can't connect all the dots. If EGW says God does not use force, you say he does, you can't reconcile those statements. When EGW says God is not the executioner, you reject and ignore those statements and say does use force. When she says that sickness is caused by sin, you say that God brings sickness and then kills. What is the GOSPEL? The Good News? Is it that God has found a way so He does not have to kill us????

There is one more thing I can say, even if an angel of light should come, I can't go back to thinking like you do. We have nothing to fear from God. We have everything to fear from SIN.

How can one connect the dots and get the correct picture, if one adds dots and erases others to paint their own idea of what the picture should look like?

I agree with MM and James on this-- that this debate has ridiculed and mocked the justice of God in deliberately (not just passively) dealing with sin.

By erasing some of the dots, some paint a picture of a God Who is only permitted to step back and allow Satan and sin to do its thing.

The problem with that?
When the Spanish Armada was heading for England, with the intent that England was going to fall, and Catholic rule was to be re-established with force was Satan's plan -- he WANTED and instigated this whole plan. He was going to do everything he could to wipe Protestantism off the map.

BUT GOD STOPPED IT -- by commanding the waves and the winds to destroy that armada.
If God only stepped back and allowed Satan to do his thing -- satan would have insured that armada got to England and did its frightful work.

But God stepped in and ACTED.

This was a turning point for history -- as it was through England that Protestantism, not Catholism, was the religious mindset in America, and with it came the opening up of a whole era where religious freedom was respected and truth had a chance to be proclaimed and grow.

I'm sure satan thought God was a tyrant for destroying his armada, and wants you to think the same. But no -- God was merciful and just so many could hear the truth and be saved for eternity.