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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16079
10/31/05 11:54 AM
10/31/05 11:54 AM
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Brazil
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It seems I am in agreement with John.
Mike,
I think the difference is that after incarnation Christ’s mind had to deal with His human feelings and desires.
Tom,
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16080
10/31/05 01:59 PM
10/31/05 01:59 PM
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Ontario
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quote:
“He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but he did not take the taint of sin.”
That is the same as saying that:
a)Christ took our nature (sinful flesh), and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies – according to the flesh.
Christ did not take our sinful nature (sinful spirit) but rather retained his holy spirit.
To take on the sinful spirit, would mean that he would have to participate in sin and he did not.
There is nothing in us that causes us to sin but our sinful spirit. The solution is his Holy Spirit. That is the message of righteousness by faith, Christ in you the hope of glory.
The sinful spirit was allowed to be pressed upon him several times which he resisted to the point of the cross.
May God help us understand and receive his holy spirit.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16081
10/31/05 03:41 PM
10/31/05 03:41 PM
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John, Satan's flesh became sinful the moment he sinned. The same is true of Adam. In the case of the humans, sinful flesh nature gains momentum as it is passed on from generation to generation. Its ability to tempt us grows stronger and stronger each time it is added to and passed on. Things are far worse now than they were immediately after Adam sinned. quote:
May God help us understand and receive his holy spirit.
May God help us understand and recieve the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead. I do not agree with the implication that the Holy Spirit is not a divine Being in the same way the Father and the Son are divine Beings. This is not a separate topic.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16082
10/31/05 03:46 PM
10/31/05 03:46 PM
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Rosangela, in what way did Jesus' human feelings and desires differ from the ones He dealt with before His incarnation?
What was it about His sinful human nature that made it possible for Him to be tempted in the same way born again believers are tempted?
Was He tempted from within in the same way born again believers are tempted from within?
Since it is not a sin to be tempted, was Jesus tempted differently than how born again believers are tempted? That is, was the origin or source of His temptations different? I realize some of His temptations were different.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16083
10/31/05 05:00 PM
10/31/05 05:00 PM
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Rosangela, you never did respond to the historical considerations, which I what I consider to be the weakest part of the pre-lapsarian position. One can attempt to parse Ellen White's words in different ways, but one cannot change history.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16084
10/31/05 09:27 PM
10/31/05 09:27 PM
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16085
10/31/05 09:30 PM
10/31/05 09:30 PM
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quote:
Satan's flesh became sinful the moment he sinned. The same is true of Adam. In the case of the humans, sinful flesh nature gains momentum as it is passed on from generation to generation. Its ability to tempt us grows stronger and stronger each time it is added to and passed on. Things are far worse now than they were immediately after Adam sinned.
I agree that a change in the spirit affects the flesh. I disagree that a change in the flesh alters the spirit.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16086
11/01/05 01:04 PM
11/01/05 01:04 PM
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Tom, I’m sure we have discussed this in the past. What I see in our history is that just because Ellen White endorsed some author/preacher, this doesn’t mean she was in agreement with every aspect of what that author/preacher said. So, I don’t go to others in order to establish what Ellen White thought. I go to what she wrote herself. Mike, quote:
Rosangela, in what way did Jesus' human feelings and desires differ from the ones He dealt with before His incarnation?
Well, God doesn’t have to deal with fear, discouragement, depression; the desire to avoid disagreeable experiences, suffering, and death; desires related to physical needs and impulses.
“The human will of Christ would not have led him to the wilderness of temptation, to fast, and to be tempted of the devil. It would not have led him to endure humiliation, scorn, reproach, suffering, and death. His human nature shrank from all these things as decidedly as ours shrinks from them.” {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 9}
quote:
What was it about His sinful human nature that made it possible for Him to be tempted in the same way born again believers are tempted?
All the things mentioned above are sources of temptation.
quote:
Was He tempted from within in the same way born again believers are tempted from within?
It depends on what “temptations from within” mean. Christ didn’t possess inward corruption, nor did He have a sinful self to subdue, like us:
“Christ did not need to fast for forty days because of inward corruption, or to subdue self. He was sinless. It was on our account that He fasted.” {21MR 11.4}
quote:
Since it is not a sin to be tempted, was Jesus tempted differently than how born again believers are tempted? That is, was the origin or source of His temptations different? I realize some of His temptations were different.
In my opinion, things worked that way: He was tempted to become selfish, not to manifest His inward selfishness.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16087
11/01/05 03:39 PM
11/01/05 03:39 PM
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quote:
I’m sure we have discussed this in the past. What I see in our history is that just because Ellen White endorsed some author/preacher, this doesn’t mean she was in agreement with every aspect of what that author/preacher said. So, I don’t go to others in order to establish what Ellen White thought. I go to what she wrote herself.
If Ellen White endorses some author/preacher on a specific point of theology then that does imply that she agrees with that point of theology.
To ignore this I don't think is going "with what she wrote herself" because the endorsements are a part of what she wrote!
For example, she listened in person to a sermon by W. W. Prescott entitled "The Word Became Flesh". Over three dozen times W. W. Prescott referred to the fact that Christ took our fallen, sinful flesh. She referred to this sermon as "truth separated from error". The subject of the sermon was the nature of Christ; it wasn't just a part of the sermon. The endorsement of "truth separated from error" must include the nature of Christ, because that's what the sermon was about!
Ellen White's ministry was in the context of history, just like that of any other human. To interpret her aright, it's essential that we be aware of the theology of her colleagues (especially those she endorsed) and how she related to them.
She not only endorsed the particular points of theology of certain ones (such as Waggoner and Haskel), she endorsed this theology with the specific purpose of overcoming a heresy whose foundation was the opposite of what she was endorsing. That is, the Holy Flesh heresy was predicated on the belief that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam. SDA's, with her blessing, counteracted this theology by pointing out that we (i.e. SDA's) do not believe that Christ took the nature of unfallen Adam, but rather the nature of fallen Adam. "We" as Haskell quoted in her letter to Ellen White, must include Ellen White.
I also quoted her statement in 1890 when she was preaching with Jones and Waggoner on the subject of Christ's nature, and responded letters had been coming to her questioning how Christ could have the fallen nature of Adam. She defended the position that she, Jones and Waggoner were presenting. It is evident from this statement that her position was identical to theirs, and she in defending that position was defending their position as well as hers.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16088
11/01/05 07:49 PM
11/01/05 07:49 PM
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Rosangela, I forgot to ask - Was Jesus tempted like Adam before his fall? Or, was Jesus tempted like Adam after his fall? Is there any difference, so far as it relates to the origin and source of temptation (internal versus external)?
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