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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: James Peterson]
#160874
01/27/14 09:58 AM
01/27/14 09:58 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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Do you expect locust that resemble women to ascend soon from a US pit? Do you mind if I rephrase your question, James? I think what you're asking is, if the trumpets are literal, how do you interpret the fifth? Here's the fifth trumpet description of the locust/horses. Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. James or anyone, would you care to offer a literal explanation?
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: Charity]
#160875
01/27/14 10:15 AM
01/27/14 10:15 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Here's a description from the famous Mayo Clinic of the results or symptoms of a scorpion bit: Mild signs and symptoms might include:
Pain, which can be intense Numbness and tingling in the area around the sting Slight swelling in the area around the sting More-severe signs and symptoms might include:
Muscle twitching or thrashing Unusual head, neck and eye movements Drooling Sweating Vomiting High blood pressure (hypertension) or low blood pressure (hypotension) Accelerated heart rate (tachycardia) or irregular heart beat (arrhythmia) Restlessness or excitability or inconsolable crying (in children)
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: Charity]
#160885
01/27/14 03:03 PM
01/27/14 03:03 PM
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I would like to point out some thoughts on Rev 9:3-9 as to their meaning.
Rev. 9:3, 4. "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."
With the smoke symbolizing the crucifixion, and the locusts coming out of the smoke, the only admissible conclusion is that they are symbolical of the Christians who came as a consequence of the sacrificial blood that was shed on Calvary.
And the fact that they were to hurt "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads," makes this conclusion even more inescapable. For only a true Christian, one who has a personal experience with God, a perfect knowledge of His Word, and who is filled with His Spirit, can discriminate saint from sinner.
He, only, can recognize who has the seal and who does not have it, when the latter is cloaked in a counterfeit robe of righteousness.
The idea that the locusts are symbolical of the "Saracen" warriors is both unscriptural and illogical, for, unlike the locusts, the Saracens killed as many as opposed their way. Especially did they trouble the Christians -- those who had the "seal of God in their foreheads." And such precisely is Satan's business, that he might kill all who have the seal of God.
To those though, whom the "locusts" represent, the restraining order "was given that they should not kill" (Rev. 9:5) anyone, their business instead being to hurt "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." Rev. 9:4. For this reason, also the one prior, the "locusts" cannot symbolize the followers of Mohammed or of any other of Satan's agents.
Had the Christians not been told "that they should not kill," they naturally would not have known that they were entering into the period of grace, and so would have followed the example of the Jewish nation when, as a theocracy charged to execute God's judgments, they were commanded to kill and to drive out of the land (as was revealed by the first three trumpets) both those who were departed from Him and those who did not acknowledge Him as the only true God.
His command, however, to the locusts "that they should not kill," inaugurates a significant change in His people's dealings with His enemies. The great principle of non-resistance enjoined in this change, Christ enunciated in His sermon on the mount:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matt. 5:38, 39.
Preaching Christ and Him crucified was a bitter cup to quaff for those who, because they loved sin and despised reproof, hated Him and His people. The Christians consequently became a great nuisance and vexation to their antagonists. Indeed, just as the Old and New Testament Scriptures, the "two witnesses," which are the "two olive trees," -- "two prophets" (Rev. 11:3, 10), -- were so great a torment to the wicked during the "forty and two months" (Rev. 11:2), just so the locusts became so great a torment by the preaching of the gospel that both the Jews and the Romans persecuted and killed as many of them as time allowed, thus fulfilling "the first woe."
Just think how many were converted on the day of Pentecost alone -- "about three thousand souls"! And following that "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved"! Acts 2:41, 47. This sudden great increase in numbers among the Christians, after the crucifixion, made them appear to be swarming like "locusts."
Then, too, locusts can neither be frightened nor made to defend themselves under any provocation. Neither is there felt in the human heart any sorrow or pity for them, be they ever so ruthlessly killed. Yet they cannot be exterminated by the human hand.
For these reasons, they are a perfect symbol of the early Christians' indomitable courage and meekness in the face of the cruel oppression of them by their heartless enemies, and of the impossibility of the latter's bringing about an extinction of Christianity.
Rev. 9:7, first clause: "And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle."
Horses are prepared for battle by being well trained, a fact which in this connection manifestly denotes that the early Christians swiftly and proficiently marched on with their message, as horses in battle array.
Rev. 9:7, second clause. "And on their heads were as it were crowns like gold."
So obvious as to require no interpretation, the locusts' having "crowns of gold" signifies their being invested with authority pure and excellent: the authority of Christ. And such was exclusively the investment of the members of the early Christian church. Christ secured it unto them in His commitment:
"I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt. 16:19.
Rev. 9:7, third clause. "And their faces were as the faces of men."
Observe that the locusts have human faces symbolizing intelligence, but mark especially that they are masculine. Were they feminine, the symbol would be faulty, for the face of a woman does not naturally characterize a soldier.
Rev. 9:8, first clause. "And they had hair as the hair of women."
A woman's hair being her glory (1 Cor. 11:15), and a "woman" being symbolical of the church (Jer. 6:2), the feminine hair shows that the "locusts" were affiliated with the church, and that she was their glory. "So that we ourselves," says Paul, "glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure." 2 Thess. 1:4.
Rev. 9:8, second clause. "And their teeth were as the teeth of lions."
Though a lion is the most fearsome of beasts, yet had he no teeth, he would be scarcely more fearsome than a dog. The locusts' having the teeth of lions denotes that the early Christians had far greater potential power to defend themselves and to kill every beast (man) that was not of their kind (a Christian) than had ancient Israel against the heathen in their day.
For this reason it was necessary to command the "locusts" not to kill. A demonstration of the power which they possessed is seen in the fate of Ananias and Sapphira, who instantly, upon Peter's exposing their sin of dissimulation, fell dead at the apostle's feet (Acts 5:1-11). Clearly, then, if Peter, without exertion on his part, had sufficient power to destroy hypocrites who came into his presence, he most certainly had as much power to destroy the heathen who attempted to retard the advancement of the gospel.
Rev. 9:9, first clause. "And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron."
The Scriptural significance of "breastplate" is "faith and love" (1 Thess. 5:8) -- the Christian's only defense. And the locusts' breastplates were "as it were breastplates of iron," the strongest metal known. The faith, therefore, of those fearless soldiers of the cross was so invincible, and their love for Christ and for His people so pure and unconquerable, that "daily in the temple, and in every house they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ" (Acts 5:42), though for so doing they were killed like locusts. O what a contrast between these heroic love-slaves of Christ and most professed Christians of today!
Rev. 9:9, second clause. "And the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle."
As has been seen so far, the symbols of the fifth trumpet show that though the early disciples were mercilessly persecuted and killed yet they openly and fearlessly swarmed to the battle-line to proclaim the gospel of Christ. And in giving an individual sample of their fearless efforts, Paul says: "I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks...not knowing the things that shall befall me." Acts 20:20-22.
How many of today's disciples of Christ would knowingly risk their lives for the proclamation of the gospel? Even in time of peace most Christians would rather send a missionary to do the work which the Lord calls to be done than to go do it themselves.
In thus serving by substitute, by proxy as it were, they are not unlike the cuckoo who lays her eggs in other birds' nests for them to hatch and to care for. And some, because of their ignorance of Christ's majesty and of His power to protect, and because of their blindness to their duty and to the "recompense of reward," are even ashamed openly to confess Him in word and in deed.
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: Charity]
#160890
01/27/14 03:23 PM
01/27/14 03:23 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Locusts aside, "was as", "were like", "like unto". One can literally compare things which are much unlike without requiring them to be those things.
As for locusts, it was talking about the bottomless pit, the smoke arising from it, and locusts coming from it. How would one literally describe satan and his angels being turned loose upon humanity, and not literally seen, but disguised?
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: James Peterson]
#160904
01/27/14 05:21 PM
01/27/14 05:21 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Posts: 3,613
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James, have you reviewed the fruit of Ellen White's ministry, her alignment with scripture and her prophetic track record? But Ellen White aside, the first rule of prophetic interpretation is to read a passage literally unless this is contextually impossible. In the case of the trumpets the literal approach works and so it should be preferred. Do you expect locust that resemble women to ascend soon from a US pit? /// Did you know that the original fulfillment of Revelation 9's fifth trump was in rise of the Muslim/ Muhamadan world during the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire? "As the first four of the Seven Trumpets mark the ruin of the Western Empire of Rome, and the planting, in its place, of the peoples that form the nations of Western Europe to-day; so the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets mark the ruin of the Eastern Empire of Rome, and introduce the peoples by whom that ruin was accomplished; and who are the modern nations of Eastern Europe and of Asia. {GNT 60.2}This trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A. D. 632-1449,—and shows the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of Eastern Rome—first the Arabian Mohammedans and later the Turkish Mohammedans. Of this Albert Barnes remarks that, “ with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed.” We can not see how anyone who will read the prophecy, and Gibbon’s history of Mohammed and his successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans. {GNT 61.1} The term “bottomless pit,” which denotes the place of their rise, is from the Greek word abussos, and signifies a waste, desolate region. And a brief sketch of Arabia makes plain the significance and aptness of the term as applied to that country. {GNT 62.1} Can anyone see how the fifth trump could be sounded again? Maybe in 9/11?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#160905
01/27/14 08:47 PM
01/27/14 08:47 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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Did you know that the original fulfillment of Revelation 9's fifth trump was in rise of the Muslim/ Muhamadan world during the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire? First of all, that is not true. The Fifth trumpet comes about as a consequence of the fallen star (Wormwood) on the sources of the rivers and springs of water. Now, that star arises, gathers about himself "locusts" of every sort and goes out into the world wreaking havoc in the lives of others. The Fifth trumpet is Christianity run amok, overtaken by militarism and materialism, conquest and the love of money in foreign lands. /// Can anyone see how the fifth trump could be sounded again? Maybe in 9/11? Secondly, 9/11 is not the fulfillment of any Bible prophecy. It is part of a larger warning to the world that its IDOL of filthy lucre (THE WORLD TRADE CENTER) is not the rock of salvation or even, of safety. But there is no prophet in the land to make it known to men. Christianity is in a deep sleep; and SDA have been given up to blindness in Ellen White. ///
Last edited by James Peterson; 01/27/14 08:52 PM.
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: James Peterson]
#160906
01/27/14 09:27 PM
01/27/14 09:27 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Mr Peterson,
If you don't even want to know what we believe, or even respect the fact that you are on a SDA website why are you here?
This is what the historic SDA church has believed since the days of the pioneers.
"with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed.” We can not see how anyone who will read the prophecy, and Gibbon’s history of Mohammed and his successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans." {GNT 61.1}
The long flowing hair of the Muslim's riding horses and wearing armor is what Rev 9's fifth trump is talking about.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#160907
01/27/14 09:28 PM
01/27/14 09:28 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Read Gibbon's history of Muhammed, you will see what all of the symbology means.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#160912
01/28/14 12:53 AM
01/28/14 12:53 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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The long flowing hair of the Muslim's riding horses and wearing armor is what Rev 9's fifth trump is talking about. Who told you so? You are prophesying falsely by attributing the actions of the Church to people innocent of the crime. The seven trumpets are about the Church. The Bible says so. It says, "And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets." (Rev. 8:2) Or have you thrown your copy of the Bible into the garbage, and hug instead that which will not profit you? ///
Last edited by James Peterson; 01/28/14 12:54 AM.
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Re: Some signs will happen again?
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#160927
01/28/14 12:59 PM
01/28/14 12:59 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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. . .The only admissible conclusion is that they [the locusts] are symbolical of the Christians who came as a consequence of the sacrificial blood that was shed on Calvary.
Interesting. It just so happens that I heard a similar interpretation recently of the hoards of Joel 2 from a man I highly respect - David Gates. So I'm looking at this carefully. The main problem here in this fifth trumpet, 1st woe, is that the king of the locusts is Abaddon aka Apollyon which is Lucifer. I'm sure you've noticed this but how do you deal with it?
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