PS - I do not believe Jesus commanded divorce or polygamy. You do. The law permits divorce; but Jesus never commanded it. I do not believe the law permits polygamy.

You believe Jesus commanded war. The Bible states it so plainly even you believe it. The only time Jesus prohibited it is when the Hebrews refused His initial command to attack. Jesus then commanded them to retreat. Instead they attacked. Jesus told them to retreat, not to attack. You twist this incident to say Jesus never intended the Hebrews to take the Promised Land by force of arms.

But you digress. The point is simple - You believe Jesus commanded murder. Your awkward attempt to justify your belief would be comical if it were not, in fact, tragic. You have never posted passages you believe support your belief that Jesus commanded murder by commanding His chosen people to kill criminals and combatants. Please do so.

So you are saying that God did NOT command Saul to kill the Amalekites. So, was God happy that Saul did not do what He did not command? What was Samuel all upset about?

APL is saying that God did NOT command Saul to kill Agag and the Amalekites.

You believe that Israel was a good little family when they left Egypt. But repeatedly, they rejected God as their leader. When they left Egypt, "they had little knowledge of God and little faith in Him [God]", and, "They were unarmed". When the armies of Egypt came after them to bring them back, the people were lacked "discipline and self-control, they became violent and unreasonable." Did they need to figh the Egpyptians? Nope. "From the most terrible peril, one night had brought complete deliverance." All without fighting!

EGW writes of THIS experience, "The great lesson here taught is for all time. Often the Christian life is beset by dangers, and duty seems hard to perform. The imagination pictures impending ruin before and bondage or death behind. Yet the voice of God speaks clearly, "Go forward." We should obey this command, even though our eyes cannot penetrate the darkness, and we feel the cold waves about our feet. The obstacles that hinder our progress will never disappear before a halting, doubting spirit. Those who defer obedience till every shadow of uncertainty disappears and there remains no risk of failure or defeat, will never obey at all. Unbelief whispers, "Let us wait till the obstructions are removed, and we can see our way clearly;" but faith courageously urges an advance, hoping all things, believing all things." {PP 290.2} This going forward, does not mean, take your sword, you guns, and fight! No No. When God said to Israel to go forward in to Canaan, it was not to fight their way in as MM believes, it was to "go forward".

3 days after being delivered from the Egyptians, the people complained again. How quickly they lost their faith! "..Not remembering that the divine presence in that mysterious cloud had been leading him as well as them". At Sinai, idolatry again. All this with the presence of the Lord clearly visible. But we find now that the people had weapons. Weapons which not long before they did not have! The people had little faith in God. Their lack of faith, and lack of knowledge of the character of God lead to many gross things. " By perverted conceptions of divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favor of their deities". Israel eventually participated. Great trust in God, eh?

More stories of the rebellion of Israel are presented enroute to the promised land. The people continue to complain. EGW, "God gave the people that which was not for their highest good, because they persisted in desiring it; they would not be satisfied with those things that would prove a benefit to them. Their rebellious desires were gratified, but they were left to suffer the result." {PP 382.2} What? God gave them that which was not for their highest good? Did God error? OR did God meet the people where they were? Al the instruction that God gave was His ideal will, right? NO NO.

The people continued on, and as they approached the promised land, did God command that the land be spied out first? NO! The people wanted to spy out the land. God consented! "Here it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country." After spying out the land,"...the scene changed. Hope and courage gave place to cowardly despair, as the spies uttered the sentiments of their unbelieving hearts, which were filled with discouragement prompted by Satan. Their unbelief cast a gloomy shadow over the congregation, and the mighty power of God, so often manifested in behalf of the chosen nation, was forgotten. The people did not wait to reflect; they did not reason that He who had brought them thus far would certainly give them the land; they did not call to mind how wonderfully God had delivered them from their oppressors, cutting a path through the sea and destroying the pursuing hosts of Pharaoh. They left God out of the question, and acted as though they must depend solely on the power of arms." {PP 388.1} MM - did then need ARMS? NO NO NO.

"The Lord promised to spare Israel from immediate destruction; but because of their unbelief and cowardice He could not manifest His power to subdue their enemies. Therefore in His mercy He bade them, as the only safe course, to turn back toward the Red Sea." {PP 391.1} And when they disobeyed, they then thought to take matters in their own hands and fight their way in!

"The night was spent in lamentation, but with the morning came a hope. They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them." {PP 392.2}

"God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands." {PP 392.3}

It was NEVER God's plan that the people gain the land by warfare. This fact, MM can not accept. Read the book, PP. Start at the chapter on the Exodus and read forward. They were not to fight. But did they fight? Yes. Did God abandon them? No. We have forgotten the lesson that God has given us! It is not I that is twisting the facts. And the writtings of Adventist pioneers agree with what I have written, MM dismisses it all as writings of uninspired men. Who is it that is uninspired?

I noticed MM, even though he started this thread and implied that there is a distinction between murder and killing, he does not even attempt to make the distinction. If one makes such a statement as saying APL is wrong in believing Jesus commanded murder, as opposed to believing Jesus commanded killing as if that would somehow be different, would it not be reasonable for one to clearly and concisely distinguish between the two?

I am surprised that MM implies a distinction based upon what he has said elsewhere, indicating that God is above His own law because He is, well, God. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander. So why he thinks a distinction needs to be made is rather surprising.

It is my opinion, why MM, Green, James, and others have not and will not make such a distinction between murder and killing that even an eighth grader can determine whether someone "murdered" or "killed" is because then they would have to say that God murders. This is why some keep it vague and post page after page of ramblings of everything but the distinction. This way, they cannot be held to any specifics, and if the claim was made that they are saying God "murders", they will claim they were being misrepresented. Keep it vague, blurry, undefined, then they can weasel out of any accountability.

This is why they refuse to clearly and concisely make the distinction. It is possible I can easily be proved wrong. But I do not have any expectation of such.

APL, say what you want, but the fact remains = You believe Jesus commanded murder. Another fact remains - You have not posted passages you believe support your belief. Please do so.

No one here disagrees with the fact the Hebrews disobeyed and disappointed Jesus. The problem is - You believe Jesus accommodated their disobedience by commanding them to murder criminals and combatants. You somehow think it matters He commanded them to retreat when they refused His command to attack.

Kland, your accusation is groundless. We have repeatedly addressed your concern over the distinction between killing and murder. You have refused to respond. Jesus can do things we cannot do. Jesus can kill with impunity. Even you agree. You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, and evil angels to murder. You seem to think so long as someone or some thing else is doing the murdering Jesus is free of responsibility. However, you are quick to agree if we did the same thing we would be guilty of first degree murder. So, you see, you yourself make a clear and definite distinction between right and wrong. However, we disagree on your definition of murder. I do not agree with you that Jesus commanded murder or permits murder.

By your definition MM, then God the greatest rapist. The highest thief. The grandest of the mass murderers. Could God stop all these things? YES, "as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth." But God does not do this. WHY? Because "rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." {DA 759.1}

The claim that God can kill with impunity. Yes, this is the great controversy. Is God's law immutable? Can some specification of the law be set aside? Green and MM hold up the laws of men as proof that killing is not murder, that warfare is justified killing, and we can kill in self-defense. MM claims that when God removes His protection, that He is acting arbitrarily, that it is God's choice to withdraw. But this is not the case. I will quote several paragraphs from the boo, The Desire of Ages to show how false this view is.

That the law which was spoken by God's own voice is faulty, that some specification has been set aside, is the claim which Satan now puts forward. It is the last great deception that he will bring upon the world. He needs not to assail the whole law; if he can lead men to disregard one precept, his purpose is gained. [thou shall not kill for example] For "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10. By consenting to break one precept, men are brought under Satan's power. By substituting human law for God's law [such as laws for warfare], Satan will seek to control the world. This work is foretold in prophecy. Of the great apostate power which is the representative of Satan, it is declared, "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: [yep - change laws] and they shall be given into his hand." Daniel 7:25. {DA 763.1}
Men will surely set up their laws to counterwork the laws of God. They will seek to compel the consciences of others, and in their zeal to enforce these laws they will oppress their fellow men. {DA 763.2}

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. [their own choice!!!] By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. [men today still don't understand this!!!] Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; [perished because of sin, not because God had killed them!!!] but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. [and men today still have not learned this fact] A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, [that sin destroys that which God has made] Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

Well, then, might the angels rejoice as they looked upon the Saviour's cross; for though they did not then understand all, they knew that the destruction of sin and Satan was forever made certain, that the redemption of man was assured, and that the universe was made eternally secure. Christ Himself fully comprehended the results of the sacrifice made upon Calvary. To all these He looked forward when upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished." {DA 764.4}

APL, you digress - again. No one here disputes the truthfulness of the passages you posted above.

However, you still have not posted passages you believe proves Jesus commanded murder. Please do so.