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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Alchemy]
#161003
01/29/14 01:27 PM
01/29/14 01:27 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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"APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?"
Of course not.
Murder and killing are two completely different actions. Murder is undeserved and killing is deserved.
Again, God can read the hearts of men and rightly discern what action is proper. And since has always wanted to saved life, He would never murder anyone.
Consequently, since all that exist is created by God, and all that exist is owned and maintained by God, all who reject God must be killed because there isn't anywhere for these people to live happy lives. Light and darkness can never co-exist! Hm - "light and dark can neer co-exist". WHY? Because the light has to kill the darkness? Sin is not really the problem them, is it? Sin does not kill. Sin has to be killed or else it won't go away. And as MM says, God causes disease and death. What is the problem then, sin or God?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161004
01/29/14 02:02 PM
01/29/14 02:02 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
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Kland, your accusation is groundless. We have repeatedly addressed your concern over the distinction between killing and murder. You have refused to respond. Jesus can do things we cannot do. Jesus can kill with impunity. Even you agree. You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, and evil angels to murder. You seem to think so long as someone or some thing else is doing the murdering Jesus is free of responsibility. However, you are quick to agree if we did the same thing we would be guilty of first degree murder. So, you see, you yourself make a clear and definite distinction between right and wrong. However, we disagree on your definition of murder. I do not agree with you that Jesus commanded murder or permits murder. I'm not sure you can support you disagree with my definition of murder when you cannot or will not make the distinction. Where have you ever attempted such? My lack of expectation is fulfilled. I do not recall you ever doing so. I could be wrong. And it seems odd to me that you say, "you yourself make a clear and definite distinction between right and wrong". Of course I do. It's you and some others who make no difference when God is doing it. That's what we've been discussing for some time. But now you seem to think murder is wrong but killing is not? Very odd indeed! But regardless of whether you did or did not make the distinction before, by starting a thread titled, "APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?", you need to make the distinction to be honest. You said at the beginning post: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?
APL further explains his belief by arguing Jesus also commanded other unlawful acts - such as divorce and polygamy. Is he right? Did Jesus command people to do unlawful things?
I know I can find many places where you say Jesus commanded the slaughtering of men, women, and children. Even in the current post, you say, Jesus can do things we cannot do. Jesus can kill with impunity. The 10 commandments say, "Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill." It doesn't say thou shalt not kill unless you have a good reason. So, by saying Jesus is above His own law, you are actually saying there needs be no distinction. But when you start a post saying "APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?" implying that he is wrong, even though you have said many times Jesus kills, tortures, and otherwise cause pain and suffering (the same acts as a dictator does), then you need to distinguish whatever difference you think there is between killing and murder. You keep asking APL to show where Jesus commanded murder. Please define what it is so he or I can show you. Otherwise, your purpose of this thread is merely an attempt to cast APL in a poor light without any basis of support. Your thread is groundless. Groundless from your own lack of giving basis.
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Alchemy]
#161005
01/29/14 02:06 PM
01/29/14 02:06 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
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"APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?"
Of course not.
Murder and killing are two completely different actions. Murder is undeserved and killing is deserved.
Again, God can read the hearts of men and rightly discern what action is proper. And since has always wanted to saved life, He would never murder anyone.
Consequently, since all that exist is created by God, and all that exist is owned and maintained by God, all who reject God must be killed because there isn't anywhere for these people to live happy lives. Light and darkness can never co-exist! Well that's sure an interesting twist! Can you show us of anyone "murdering" anyone who did not think the victim deserved it? But how can you say God would never murder anyone when by your premise of definition, God only gives what is deserved and therefore by definition cannot "murder". Who determines "deserved-ness"? The one under discussion? Therefore by your definition, God is not up for testing.
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161013
01/29/14 03:52 PM
01/29/14 03:52 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, you have not actually said - I believe Jesus commanded King Saul to kill men, women, children, and infants. Do you?
The truth is - You have never posted a passage you believe depicts Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Please do so.
DO NOT POST ANYTHING ELSE HERE UNTIL YOU ADDRESS THIS POST. MM makes the statement in the title of this thread, then asks me to prove it. I find that interesting...
God gave instructions for divorce: true or false? TRUE. Does this mean that God condones, desires, wants, approves of divorce? NO. God HATES divorce. Yet, He did give instructions for divorce. WHY? MM things this is an irrelevant question, and so dismisses it. It is not irrelevant, and is in fact revelatory as to how God works with those the refuse to fully follow Him, those that reject Him, those that despise Him.
The history of Israel is one of constant lack of faith and rebellion. The fact that Israel had a king showed a rejection of God. Yet God did not abandon them. The instructions that God gave Israel were often to reduce the damage of their wayward, faithless ways. And people look at this and say, YES - that is what God wants! He commanded it. That proves it! NO, it does not.
A modern metaphor is of Godly parents with a promiscuous child. They could let the child run wild, or they can inform the child of methods to minimize the damage his actions are leading to. Informing a child of barrier methods, and birth control in no ways means the parents wholly approve of the direction, goals and actions of the child.
The people demanded meat in the wilderness. God gave them that which was not good for them. Many died! Does this mean that God approves of the meat HE gave them? Not in the least! Read the Bible as a whole. Moderators:
As you can see, APL is refusing to comply with my demands. Is there a Christian way to resolve this ongoing problem?
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161014
01/29/14 04:12 PM
01/29/14 04:12 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Kland, you have refused to address the following passage: The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2} As anyone can read, Jesus kills with impunity. Jesus commanded Moses to kill with impunity. Obviously Jesus is not guilty of murder. The difference between kill and murder is clear and distinct. Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder." The Bible also says, "For sedition and murder was cast into prison". "Let none of you suffer as a murderer." "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." "Murderers . . . shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." The following passages makes the distinction abundantly clear: Numbers 35:15 These six cities shall be a refuge, [both] for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither. 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 35:18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. 35:20 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; 35:21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote [him] shall surely be put to death; [for] he [is] a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him. 35:22 But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait, 35:23 Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing [him] not, and cast [it] upon him, that he die, and [was] not his enemy, neither sought his harm: 35:24 Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments: 35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil. 35:26 But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled; 35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood: 35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession. 35:29 So these [things] shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. Murder is unlawful. Whereas killing the murderer is lawful - it is not considered murder. "He shall not be guilty."
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161020
01/29/14 08:06 PM
01/29/14 08:06 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Yes, God meeting His rebellious unfaithful people where they were. But we have seen Jesus, we know what God really wants. Romans 12:19-21 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord. 20 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: APL]
#161028
01/29/14 11:19 PM
01/29/14 11:19 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Moderators:
As you can see, APL is refusing to comply with my demands. Is there a Christian way to resolve this ongoing problem?
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161030
01/29/14 11:41 PM
01/29/14 11:41 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,619
California, USA
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Moderators:
As you can see, APL is refusing to comply with my demands. Is there a Christian way to resolve this ongoing problem? We just have to meet people where they are. Perhaps the problem is not refusal, but simple inability to comply. We are on different points in the journey.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: asygo]
#161032
01/30/14 01:06 AM
01/30/14 01:06 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL is too blind to see his error, Mike. He's stubbornly resisted the truth on this point for so long, he cannot be brought to see it. I think, actually, he may be seeing it. The real problem is pride. He will not admit to having been wrong.
The Bible is too clear on this point to accept his doctrine. His doctrine is a false doctrine--that killing = murder. There is a clear distinction in the Bible, but he refuses to see it. Because he does not wish to admit the truth, he will never answer your direct queries about it. He cannot, and still cherish his pride of opinion. One or the other must be sacrificed--and so far, as we have seen, it is the truth he has chosen to sacrifice.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#161037
01/30/14 11:23 AM
01/30/14 11:23 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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APL is not blind. He sees things in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy which in invisible to babes and infants in the faith.
Babes and infants need to be saved as well. They have to receive nurture on a different level.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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