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Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: kland] #161054
01/30/14 05:45 PM
01/30/14 05:45 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Saying Jesus can murder with impunity or Jesus can kill with impunity is saying the exact same thing,

If that is the case, then MM's choice of title for this thread was accurate. APL has said that God commanded Saul to kill. He even complained when I misunderstood him to mean the opposite. There is no question that APL believes God commanded killing.

If killing and murder are exactly the same thing, then APL does indeed believe that God commanded murder. There would be no reason to question the accuracy of MM's title.

One question still left unanswered is WHY God commanded murder. APL keeps asking this, and seems to believe he has a good answer. And Johann seems to agree that APL has good reason to believe why God commanded people to murder others.

However, that question is premature at this point because only a handful of people would agree that God commanded murder, since He also commanded us to not murder. The OP question is still waiting: Is APL correct?

You might disagree with the majority position, which includes APL, that God commanded Saul to kill. But you have been conspicuously silent on that point.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: asygo] #161061
01/30/14 09:47 PM
01/30/14 09:47 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
I have quoted this before, and I'll quote it again as this shows that the thoughts of Adventist pioneers were of the same mind as I have been stating.

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: APL] #161062
01/30/14 10:22 PM
01/30/14 10:22 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
It takes a living relationship with God to see how He works.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: Johann] #161063
01/31/14 01:09 AM
01/31/14 01:09 AM
asygo  Offline
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Indeed it does. But when one says God did not command killing, while Samuel the prophet was pretty sure that He did, I don't think that's the kind of relationship one wants. When Saul refused to obey God' command to kill Agag, and one says he was merely fulfilling God's will by not killing Agag, there's a problem.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: asygo] #161064
01/31/14 01:15 AM
01/31/14 01:15 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Who is saying this?????


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: APL] #161065
01/31/14 01:41 AM
01/31/14 01:41 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, you have repeatedly refused to comply with my demands. It is disrespectful. Please refrain from posting on this thread. You are no longer welcome here.

Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: Mountain Man] #161067
01/31/14 03:14 AM
01/31/14 03:14 AM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
If that is the feeling of the owner and users of this forum, I would be happy to comply with your demands. So far, they have not expressed that feeling. But should they, then fine. But I find your attitude quite revealing. I suggest you read the following care and introspection.

The spirit of hatred and revenge originated with Satan, and it led him to put to death the Son of God. Whoever cherishes malice or unkindness is cherishing the same spirit, and its fruit will be unto death. In the revengeful thought the evil deed lies enfolded, as the plant in the seed. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. {MB 56.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: APL] #161068
01/31/14 03:42 AM
01/31/14 03:42 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
And APL, perhaps you should read the following with thought and introspection.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Brother C is too set and willful, and too unteachable for the Lord to use to do any special work in His cause. He is too stubborn to let a few sacrificed lives change his course. He would maintain his views and notions all the more earnestly. These men will yet learn to their sorrow that they might better be teachable, and not drive their extreme views, whatever the result may be. The community will be just as well off, and a little safer upon the whole, if both these men obtain employment in some other business where life and health will not be endangered by their course of action. {2T 386.1}
...
When he has pursued a wrong course, evidently unbecoming a disciple of the meek and lowly Jesus, and has known that his words and acts were not in accordance with the sanctifying influence of truth, he has mulishly stood in his own defense, until his honesty has been questioned. He has made the most precious truth for these last days disgusting to his friends and relatives; he has proved a stumbling block to them. His evasions, his bigotry, and the extreme views he has taken have turned more souls away from the truth than his best endeavors have brought into it. {2T 388.2}

His combativeness, firmness, and self-esteem are large. He cannot bless any church with his influence until he is converted. He can see the faults of others, and will question the course of this one and that one if they do not fully endorse what he may present; but if anyone receives what he advocates, he cannot and will not see their faults and errors. This is not right. He may be correct upon many points, but he has not the mind which dwelt in Christ. When he can see himself as he is, and will correct the defects in his character, then he will be in a position to let his light so shine before men, that they, by seeing his good works, may be led to glorify our Father who is in heaven. His light has shone in such a manner that men have pronounced it darkness and turned from it in disgust. Self must die, and he must possess a teachable spirit, or he will be left to follow his own ways and be filled with his own doings. {2T 388.3}

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers [not talking the truth in a boasting, triumphant manner], but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men." "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." {2T 389.1}

Brother C wants his mind to control others, and unless he can have this privilege he is dissatisfied. He is not a peacemaker. His course will cause more confusion and distrust in a church than any ten persons can counteract. His peculiar temperament is such that he will be picking flaws, and finding fault with all but himself. He will not prosper until he learns the lesson that he ought to have learned years ago, humbleness of mind. At his age he will learn this lesson at much cost to self. All his life he has been trying to build himself up, to save himself, to preserve his own life; and he has lost his labor every time. {2T 389.2}

What Brother C needs is to have the deceptive gloss taken from his eyes, that he may look, with eyes enlightened by the Spirit of God, into his own heart, and test and weigh every motive, and not let Satan put a false coloring upon his course of action. His position is extremely perilous. He will soon turn decidedly to the right, or he will go on deceiving others and deceiving himself. He needs to have his inmost soul converted, and to be subdued and transformed by the renewing of his mind. Then he can do good. But he can never come into the light until he encourages a spirit of humble confession and takes hold with decision to right his wrongs and, as far as he can, to do away the reproach he has brought upon the cause of God. {2T 389.3}


If your course here will cause more problem than any ten persons might counteract, I can say for my part I would rather agree with Mike. I would hope that we all will recognize truth willingly in this forum, and not resist it, nor promote errors just to save face because we have already voiced them once.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: Green Cochoa] #161069
01/31/14 03:59 AM
01/31/14 03:59 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Green - have you ever thought that the SOP quote you provided describes you? Probably not.

"A disciple of the meek and lowly Jesus..." Which Jesus are you speaking about? The one we see that walked the earth for a mere 33 years? I hope so. But MM and friends think we learn more from Jesus of the OT than we do from Jesus in the NT. The SOP says no, it is the NT that we see the true character of God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? [Re: APL] #161089
01/31/14 02:59 PM
01/31/14 02:59 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
"APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?"

Of course not.

Murder and killing are two completely different actions. Murder is undeserved and killing is deserved.

Again, God can read the hearts of men and rightly discern what action is proper. And since has always wanted to saved life, He would never murder anyone.

Consequently, since all that exist is created by God, and all that exist is owned and maintained by God, all who reject God must be killed because there isn't anywhere for these people to live happy lives. Light and darkness can never co-exist!


Hm - "light and dark can neer co-exist". WHY? Because the light has to kill the darkness? Sin is not really the problem them, is it? Sin does not kill. Sin has to be killed or else it won't go away. And as MM says, God causes disease and death. What is the problem then, sin or God?


When you turn a light on in a dark room, the darkness is gone. The darkness ceases to exist. This is what happens when God is present, sin must cease to exist.

Even in outer space, it is the light that brings understanding to the universe. So, it is the light that is greater than the darkness.

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