Suppose they are. But that doesn't mean that it's not cleansing the sanctuary. And while there's no such "ready or not, you lose" type of point of probation closing, if probation closes at different times for different people, will there not be a point in time when probation is finally closed for all men?

The 7 angels with the trumpets stand before God.
One with a golden censer fills it with fire and throws it down.
The 7 angels prepare to sound.

Sounds like to me it is in sequence.
And who in the sanctuary service has a golden censer and what is it used for?

They are not the forces of good. They are ALIGNED with the forces of good. For this reason, it is written, "They were commanded ... to harm ... ONLY those men who do NOT have the seal of God on their foreheads." (Rev. 9:4)

Later in the sixth trumpet, no such distinction is made.

In other words, the star fallen from heaven (Rev. 8:10-11) takes over the church in the fifth and sixth trumpets, first wreaking havoc in the world of the ungodly through the locusts and then turning them against their very own. It is the Church run amok, fallen away so far that "They will put you out of 'the synagogues'; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service." (John 16:2)

///

Yes brother James, it's all explained in detail and yes Scripture does point out that those name mean Jesus.No joke. The fact that you believe as you do from Gibbons, ARSH authors and other historians is up to you. If I recall right, one of those writers was Uriah Smith, who had that book "Daniel and the Revelation" which has some BIG holes in it.

I've spelled it out already why we see this as we do, can't do anymore. Further, will post on the verses for brother Mark tonight, about Rev.9:10 and after. Those issues are important as well. (Please re-read my comment to kland as to why the name Destroyer fits)

But I should discuss verse 9:1, which we left out, to maybe give some foundation here. "Star", "Bottomless pit", "smoke",etc. must be understood correctly first.

THE FIFTH TRUMPET.
Revelation 9:1-12.

Rev. 9:1-4. "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And He opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

And there came out of the smoke locusts upon
the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

Taking in order the parts (the "star," the "key," the "pit," the "smoke," the darkness, and the locusts) of this fifth trumpet symbolism, we come first to The Star.

Just as did the star of the third trumpet, so this fifth-trumpet star descended from heaven to earth. And as the third-trumpet "star" has been conclusively identified as representing the advent of the Bible then this latter one, since it is similar to the former must stand for something the equivalent of It.

The Bible and Christ being complementary affinities, each the Word of God (John 1:1-14), then the fact that the descent of the first "star" is symbolical of the advent of the Bible, compels the conclusion that the descent of the second star is symbolical of the first advent of Christ.

Moreover, the star is personified as "Him" (masculine in gender), thus being limited to a male person. And finally Christ Himself gives testimony that He is "the bright and morning star." Rev. 22:16. To Him, be it remembered, was given

"The Key of the Bottomless Pit."

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years." Rev. 20:1, 2.

As Christ is the one who secures Satan's captivity, thereby ushering in the millennium, He alone can be fittingly symbolized by the "angel...having the key of the bottomless pit," and by the "star" to whom the "key" was given.

And as the "giving" of a thing to any certain one must precede the having" of it by that one, the verbs "given" (Rev. 9:1) and "having" (Rev. 20:1; 1:18) point, of course, to two different times.

Obviously, therefore, Christ received the "key" at the sounding of the fifth trumpet -- sometime before the millennium. Hence at the commencement of the millennium He already has it.

Christ's mission being to bring deliverance from the prison house of sin and of death (the bottomless pit), and to do so through the preaching of the gospel, the key, therefore, must be figurative of the gospel, the only power that is able to set free those who are imprisoned in

The "Bottomless Pit."

Since the "bottomless pit" of Revelation 20:3 is symbolical of the earth as a prison house during the millennium, then the "bottomless pit" of Revelation 9:1, being identical, must likewise be symbolical of the earth as a prison house at another time.

This implicitly Biblical interpretation of the "star," the "key," and the "bottomless pit," reveals that the earth, at Christ's first advent, had become a prison house (a pit) for God's people and that Christ came to open it in order to save them.

The very fact that God's people are vested with the power to keep open the bottomless pit, then should they be defeated, the pit would be shut and would become a prison house from which there would be no escape unless it be reopened.

And so Satan in the latter days of the Jews, as sacred history records, attacked them, took them captive, and thus shut the pit. And knowing that when the Savior should come, He would open it, the dragon therefore stood ready to devour the "child as soon as it was born." Rev. 12:4.

But losing sight of the infant Christ, he incited Herod to slay "all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under" (Matt. 2:16), in the hope of making rid of the Savior.

Under the protection of Providence, however, Christ was kept from the bloody hand of Herod. Then subsequently with the gospel key, He opened the "pit" and freed His people. This, He Himself avowed:

"The Spirit of the Lord," He declared, is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He
hath sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18, 19. And as a result of opening the pit, there came the Smoke, the Darkness, and the Locusts.(Which has already been explained earlier)

One brief comment Godslove while you prepare an answer to the questions I raised earlier. I have a friend, Heidi Heikes, who's written a book on the fifth and sixth trumpets and he denies the Litch interpretation endorsed in the GC by Ellen White. That continues to trouble me more for the implications for her inspiration rather than the actual interpretation. If you re-apply the time periods noted in the GC, to me you have the same difficulty - what do you do with her inspiration? Maybe you won't do that. I'll wait to hear from you.

Godslove, sorry if what I posted seemed gruff.

think about this ok? Why does the bible spend so much time prophecying about the historical nation of Islam?

From the Great Controversy...

"In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown “in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;” and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: “Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case.”—Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy,
At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. (See Appendix.) When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended. {GC 335.1}

So if the pioneers who received the Spirit of Prophecy believed that the 5 months prophecy of Rev 9 was fulfilled in the fall of the Ottoman empire then why are we trying to rediscover what it meant?

Those who will receive the latter rain follow the exact same path that God led the pioneers. (Though some of the elders took the involvement of the Muslims too far and said they are the king of the North, which is totally wrong.)

Here is another thought. Let your mind be persuaded that these fulfillments were made by the descendants of Ishmael, and they claim that the father of the nation of Islam is Abraham, try to see the implications in light of 9/11!

Brother Mark, I would seriously question her motivation because anyone who would write a book about how the Great Controversy is not accurate in any way is not following the path...period.

Godsloveandlaw, I don't know who the "We" is that you are referring to but anyone who would call Jesus the "destroyer" and say that Apolion is the Christ is severely mistaken.

So by saying "we" are you saying that you are supported in this by others?

Sorry bro James, we seem to have different perspectives on this issue. What I've written ,at least to me (hopefully others), makes all the puzzles come together.

Rev. 9:10, first clause. "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails."

We have seen that the "locusts" are symbolical of the soldiers of the cross; we know that the tail of an animal is the hinder member of its body; in other words its rearguard. So we have no choice but to conclude that the tails of the locusts symbolize the church's rearguard -- its followers. Furthermore, the tail's being a connected part of the body shows that both the ministry and the laity of the early Christian church were bound together inseparably in Christ (Rom. 12:5), one contributing to another. So reads the record: "for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid
them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:34, 35.

Rev. 9:10, second clause. "And there were stings in their tails."

Their tails representing their converts, and at the same time having stings in them, then, obviously, in the rapid accession of disciples to the religion of Christ, there was a sting, a torment, to the wicked. "What shall we," they cried in consequent despair, "do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

But that it spread no further among the people, let us straightly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus," for "the world is gone after Him." Acts 4:16- 18; John 12:19.

Rev. 9:5, 6. "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months:...and in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Seeing that the "locusts" are symbolical of the followers of Christ after the crucifixion, and that they were commanded not to resist their enemies the "five months," therefore, began at that time.

And seeing, furthermore, that death does not as yet flee any men, but still reigns over all, the "five months" are in consequence figurative time, and extend from the crucifixion to a time when "death shall flee" from some men; that is, to the time when some will be made invulnerable to death.

Rev. 9:10, third clause. "And their power was to hurt men five months."

The fact, too, that the trumpets are figurative, is another evidence that these five months are figurative time. But why should this period in which the locusts, the Christians, have power to torment men be limited to "five months"?

It will be noted that the 144,000 are called the "first-fruits," denoting that they are sealed at the beginning of "the harvest" -- the commencement of the time to separate "the tares" from "the wheat." To the parable of the "harvest," then, we must go for the full explanation of the "five months" period.

The Harvest, the time from the baptism of Christ to the close of probation is shown to be illustrated by twelve figurative months -- six from Christ's baptism to His crucifixion, five from the crucifixion to the in gathering of the first fruits (the 144,000 -- Rev. 14:4), leaving one month for the in gathering of the second fruits (the great multitude -- Rev. 7:9).

During the five figurative months, the "locusts" were commanded to torment those who had not the seal of God, but not to kill them. This command implies that after the expiration of this period, the killing restriction will cease, and that from then on the wicked will be killed rather than tormented only. At that time "the four angels" of Revelation 9:15 will have prepared themselves "for to slay the third part of men."

These several linked facts present a solid chain of evidence that in the Christian era, during the five figurative months, God has deferred His vengeance to grace. And hence it follows inescapably that such Christians as executed the death penalty upon those who disagreed with them, were working against Christ rather than for Him.

For, as Christians (locusts), they were commanded not to kill, but to bless even those who "despitefully" used them. Indeed to him who would smite them on the "one cheek," they were to turn "the other" cheek. And if he should take away their "cloak," they were to let him have their "coat" also. Luke 6:28, 29.

After the expiration of the five figurative months of restriction during which they were not to kill some will be made invulnerable to death for the finishing of the gospel work, and will, if necessary to the discharging of their responsibility, be

Glad to Die, But Cannot.

Rev. 9:6. "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

The experience of Christ's first disciples will explain why that, after the expiration of the "five months," men will desire to die, but cannot. Despite great persecution against the faithful of the primitive Christian church, their vision of the world's great need urged them on to preach the gospel of Christ at the cost of their lives.

And notwithstanding cruelest death awaiting them, they in faith and courage in God held the light of the gospel before the people as constantly as the sun holds its rays over the earth.

"I came into Asia," testifies the death-bound apostle, "after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:...

"And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God....

"And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 20:18, 19, 25-27; 21:12, 13.

By preaching in the name of Christ, the Christians in Paul's time were indeed seeking death. Esteeming it the greatest privilege and honor to die for Him, they desired to do so if others might by their death obtain eternal life.

Though God's people today shall go through a "time of trouble such as never was" (Dan. 12:1), when earthly tribunals shall cause to come to pass "that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev. 13:15), yet the Word declares: "...at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Dan. 12:1.

O what a promise and what assurance! Who can comprehend God's mighty power, and the glory of this long awaited deliverance? Those who at all do, and who fully trust in the Lord will, for the good of His people, "go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach." Heb. 13:13.

In thus pursuing a course against all earthly favor (by proclaiming the message of the "hour"), they will be going "forth as sheep in the midst of wolves" (Matt. 10:16) -- "seeking death."

And although happy to "die" for Christ's sake, or, as the Revelator puts it though they "shall desire to die," the promise is that "death shall flee from them," making it impossible for them to die. Even the sword of the wicked that is raised to kill them, shall break and
fall "as powerless as a straw" (Early Writings, p. 34), making them utterly invincible.

"In that day," saith the Lord, "whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:31, 33. In short, only those who "desire to die" for Christ's sake shall obtain eternal life.

"One woe [fifth trumpet] is past; and, behold there come two woes more hereafter" (Rev. 9:12) the next being in

THE SIXTH TRUMPET.
Revelation 9:13 to 11:14.

Rev. 9:13,14. "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."

In coming from the "golden altar," the command, "Loose the four angels," shows that the sixth trumpet sounded sometime before the vail to the Most Holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary was lifted. Otherwise the voice would have come from the throne -- the Most Holy place.

But as has been shown, we are still in the period of the fifth trumpet, a fact which evokes the question: How, then, could the sixth trumpet have sounded before the events of the fifth had expired?

It will be observed that though each of the trumpets begin at a definite time, yet one overlaps the other, and all seven extend to the second coming of Christ. This is seen in the coexistence of the truths of all seven.

The flood (first trumpet), the Exodus movement (second trumpet), the giving of the Old Testament Scriptures (third trumpet), the church's going into captivity (fourth trumpet), Christ's first advent and subsequent events (fifth trumpet), are all sounding louder today than ever before.

And as these truths constitute the gospel for today, it is evident that though the trumpets run in consecutive order, each beginning at a different time, they all continue in force to the end of the world, terminating therewith. Thus the rejection of one being tantamount to the rejection of all seven, the lesson is sharply drawn that to reject one truth is to reject the whole truth.

With the fourteenth verse of Revelation 9 begins the description of the sixth trumpet, and it ends with the fourteenth verse of Revelation 11, which announces: "The second woe [sixth trumpet] is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." Accordingly, each prophetic event recorded between Revelation 9:14 and 11:14 must find its fulfillment in the period of the sixth trumpet -- between the first and the second woes.

In the light of this fact, we see that the time in which the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11:3 were to "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth," must occur during the sounding of the sixth trumpet.

And being in the future tense, the phrase, "shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 11:3), shows that at the time the trumpet began sounding, this period of 1260 days was yet future.

The voice which came from the golden altar said "to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates." In order to identify "the four angels," we must first understand the literal meaning of the river Euphrates.

The capital city of ancient Babylon was built on either side of the Euphrates, thus dividing the city in two parts. The river was also the source of water supplying a fortifying mote about the city.

So because the ancient Babylonians were the first to build on the banks of the Euphrates, and because the original application must attach to the original settlers there, the "great river Euphrates" emerges as a type of "the waters...where the whore sitteth" (Rev. 17:15) -- modern Babylon.

And this important truth is amplified by the fact that the ancient city, Babylon, does not now exist, whereas prophecy calls for a Babylon today.

Now in order for there to be a modern Babylon, there must necessarily be a repetition today of the conditions and events essentially characterizing ancient Babylon in its connection with God's people. Consequently, their captivity in Babylon, the type (Jer. 29:10), must find its parallel in Babylon, the antitype.

Very obviously, therefore, the angel's being "bound in the great river Euphrates" must be figurative of the Christian church during the period of her captivity in antitypical Babylon -- "that great city" rising after John' s time .

Godsloveandlaw; Who is the "we" you keep talking about?

There is a lot of information to delve into in your last address but first I need to know who "we" is.

P.S. I can't believe someone who seems like such a supported of the Spirit of Prophecy would make such a break from the path of the pioneers.

The prophecy was enlightened from God to a man who was inspired to prophesy the end of the Ottoman empire and exactly on the day that was prophecied the exact event foretold by the man who received the information was fulfilled.

Do you think it was just a coincidence that Josia Litch predicted the exact day and event in the fulfillment of Revelation 9?

Elder Litch was following the same Spirit that illuminated the 1844 message from William Miller and we as Adventists KNOW He was led by God, so what makes you think that you are more enlightened to be able to contradict one of the most prevelant Pioneers of The Advent Movement, who was led by God and rewarded by a huge influx of believers in the 1844 message?