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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16119
11/05/05 04:19 PM
11/05/05 04:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
This is a straw man argument. No one mentioned by you ever said Christ had a sinful mind. The acticle of Jones I presented makes this as clear as could possibly be made.
Tom,
I didn’t say any of them believed Christ had a sinful mind. The only point of agreement here is exactly that Christ didn’t have a sinful mind. But if the tendencies to sin all these people believed Christ had were not in His mind, the only other possible option is that they were in His body. What I said is that, since I don’t believe selfishness, pride, covetousness, etc. can reside in the body, I couldn’t agree with this position.
Colin here,...yes, hello, this is my very first ever post:...thank you, thank you. Intro's over; I've been following this thread all the way, so.
Between the mind and body sinful tendencies can surely be sourced between the body below the neck and the brain while propensities (habits) can be sparked in the mind - thoughts. In Romans 7 (different thread, I know...) the 'law of sin' rules in the body while the 'law of God' wants to rule in the mind. Tendencies are sourced in the body - for its own pleasure seeking, but the mind is naturally inclined to opt for those suggestions. Having started sinning, the mind can spark further suggestions, but the brain and flesh are the real source. Thus the carnal mind is the sinner's mind used to sinning.
The carnal mind is "enmity against God" (Rom 8...), but, once the convicted sinner is converted to the power of the Spirit which creates the new mind, then tendencies to sin must be sourced in the body for the believer to deal with - with the Spirit, or without the Spirit.
Hence the body must the primary source of temptations....
quote:
What any of us may think Ellen White believed is a matter of opinion. Some of her statements seem to favor one position, and some seem to favor the other, and it is clear that her endorsement of someone’s position was generally not full but qualified. She clearly believed that Christ came in our nature; what remains to be determined is if this involves just the physical aspect of it or if it also involves tendencies to sin. If this had already been determined we wouldn’t be discussing it today. [/QB]
Got to dash to celebrate Guy Fawkes night here in the United Kingdom - Nov 5th...Shall respond to your second paragraph very soon.
A blessed Sabbath, what's left of it at your end,
Colin
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16120
11/05/05 08:23 PM
11/05/05 08:23 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
[QUOTE]
What any of us may think Ellen White believed is a matter of opinion. Some of her statements seem to favor one position, and some seem to favor the other, and it is clear that her endorsement of someone’s position was generally not full but qualified. She clearly believed that Christ came in our nature; what remains to be determined is if this involves just the physical aspect of it or if it also involves tendencies to sin. If this had already been determined we wouldn’t be discussing it today.
Got to dash to celebrate Guy Fawkes night here in the United Kingdom - Nov 5th...Shall respond to your second paragraph very soon.
A blessed Sabbath, what's left of it at your end,
Colin
Right, back again....EGW's position has only been debated since after the 2nd World War. In the late 1930's F D Nichols (Review Editor-i-C; Editor of the Bible Commentary 1957) wrote in Answers to Objections that Adventists rightly taught Christ's assumption of our sinful humanity, so he insisted that the objection was correct!
The documentation by Jean Zurcher PhD in Touched with Our Feelings shows a unanimous teaching until the late 40's, such that our modern scholarship disagrees with their predecessors, with a radical break as shown in that book.
Centering sinfulness in the mind rather than the body appears to be how the wording changed, particularly prominently in the 1950's, with Christ's "sinless human nature": as defined by the "mind of Christ" instead of his human body. The defence for this change isn't good enough: "sinful human nature" was supposed to be imbalanced, not highlighting the "mind of Christ" sufficiently. We SDA's were never seriously imbalancing Christ's sinful humanity by forgetting his righteous mind and character.
Such was the biased perception of the Evangelical Christians who raised the objection in the first place!
The new thinking amongst us hasn't helped, has it...?
But, back to Scripture please, since this definition of 'human nature' by the mind rather than the body may well not tally with the Bible. The now infamous "likeness of sinful flesh" refers to the whole nature, granted. Born of a woman necessitates no exceptions in sinful human nature from her side for the Infant. To be high priest chosen from among his brethern obligates suffering the burden of morally degenerate flesh, separate from the mind...since Jesus was conceived with a mind imbued with the Holy Spirit - which didn't come from his mother(!).
Jesus' example given us in Lk 9:23 involves denying self, taking up one's cross daily and following the will of our Father. So, by his own testimony Jesus took on his divinity our humanity with its selfishness, in order to crucify it daily by faith.
Bringing the saints into the fray, we are reminded that they have the mind of Christ. How does the humanity of the saints remain sinful if they too have a righteous mind by living faith - as Christ had, for the sinful tendency of the nature would have been removed when the carnal mind was put to death by faith?
Doesn't Jesus' human nature's sinfulness help sort out our own, and clarify how perfectly Christ saves us from our nature?
Colin
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16121
11/05/05 08:23 PM
11/05/05 08:23 PM
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Brazil
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Hi, Colin, and welcome. The problem I see is how let's say, pride, or envy, can be in any way related to the body. This simply does not make sense.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16122
11/05/05 08:39 PM
11/05/05 08:39 PM
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Brazil
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quote:
Right, back again....EGW's position has only been debated since after the 2nd World War. In the late 1930's F D Nichols (Review Editor-i-C; Editor of the Bible Commentary 1957) wrote in Answers to Objections that Adventists rightly taught Christ's assumption of our sinful humanity, so he insisted that the objection was correct!
Interesting, Colin, when you mentioned this, I verified my copy of Answers to Objections, which says "Copyright, 1932, 1947, 1952, by the Review and Herald Publishing Association". Responding to the charge that Adventists believe Christ's "sinful nature" to be also "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" as all other human beings (Objection 94), Nichol states that "Christ, the 'last Adam,' possessed, on His human side, a nature like that the 'first man Adam,' a nature free from every defiling taint of sin, but capable of responding to sin..." (p. 393).
Was the answer different in 1932? If so Nichol must have changed his mind.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16123
11/05/05 08:46 PM
11/05/05 08:46 PM
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
Hi, Colin, and welcome. The problem I see is how let's say, pride, or envy, can be in any way related to the body. This simply does not make sense.
G o o d question! : is it as simple as the difference between the sinful mind and the carnal mind?
Granted sinful attitudes are not physical, generally. So, bad attitudes are sourced in the carnal mind, which is enmity to God.
Sourcing pride or envy, etc., in the sinful mind spells the end of sinful human natures for partakers of Christ's divine Spirit, does it not? - see my previous post about your understanding rendering the saints with sinless human natures like their Saviour (speaking in the 3rd person), when the sinful mind defines the nature and is experientially crucified by faith....
That isn't Biblical, surely.
Colin
[ November 05, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16124
11/05/05 09:21 PM
11/05/05 09:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
Right, back again....EGW's position has only been debated since after the 2nd World War. In the late 1930's F D Nichols (Review Editor-i-C; Editor of the Bible Commentary 1957) wrote in Answers to Objections that Adventists rightly taught Christ's assumption of our sinful humanity, so he insisted that the objection was correct!
Interesting, Colin, when you mentioned this, I verified my copy of Answers to Objections, which says "Copyright, 1932, 1947, 1952, by the Review and Herald Publishing Association". Responding to the charge that Adventists believe Christ's "sinful nature" to be also "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" as all other human beings (Objection 94), Nichol states that "Christ, the 'last Adam,' possessed, on His human side, a nature like that the 'first man Adam,' a nature free from every defiling taint of sin, but capable of responding to sin..." (p. 393).
Was the answer different in 1932? If so Nichol must have changed his mind.
I do beg his pardon: it was the 1952 edition I was quoting. But first, that the objection asserted us to hold Christ's humanity as conclusively "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" was libellous of them, given our balanced understanding (which you haven't quoted yet, from my post).
Nichol's own position, sanctioned by the GC President of the time, asserted: "Christ won [over temptations] despite the fact that he took on him 'the likeness of sinful flesh', with all that that implies of the baleful and weakening effects of sin on the body and nervous system of man and its effects on his environment - 'can any good thing come out of Nazareth?'" (p. 393)
On 'sinful flesh', he wrote (in view of Calvinists adding to it what we do not: "Thus...we lay ourselves open to misunderstanding. True, we mean by that term simply that Christ 'took on him the seed of Abraham' and was made 'in the likeness of sinful flesh', but critics are not willing to believe this." (p.397)
The bit you quoted from Nichol about no defiling taint of sin merely excludes sinning, not a degraded nature.
Any author prior to 1952 you care to quote who won't take 'likeness of sinful flesh' as it reads?
Colin
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16125
11/05/05 10:22 PM
11/05/05 10:22 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Granted sinful attitudes are not physical, generally. So, bad attitudes are sourced in the carnal mind, which is enmity to God.
But where were Jesus' "sinful propensities"? In His carnal mind?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16126
11/05/05 10:30 PM
11/05/05 10:30 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
The bit you quoted from Nichol about no defiling taint of sin merely excludes sinning, not a degraded nature.
He said Christ had a nature like that of "the first man Adam" - a degraded nature?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16127
11/05/05 10:59 PM
11/05/05 10:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
Granted sinful attitudes are not physical, generally. So, bad attitudes are sourced in the carnal mind, which is enmity to God.
But where were Jesus' "sinful propensities"? In His carnal mind?
Clearly Jesus didn't develop a carnal mind..., though he was burdened with the option of a sinful mind. Nor did he have sinful propensities - you winding me up??
EGW's 'propensities' and 'tendencies' must agree with the Bible according to her intended meaning, not the Oxford dictionary. Tendencies are harmless unless opted for in the spiritual battle; propensities are developed by habitually opting for sin.
Whereas we may disagree over EGW's meaning, Rom 8:3 remains crystal clear. EGW can easily be found to agree with this and every Scripture, though.
Colin
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16128
11/05/05 11:24 PM
11/05/05 11:24 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
The bit you quoted from Nichol about no defiling taint of sin merely excludes sinning, not a degraded nature.
He said Christ had a nature like that of "the first man Adam" - a degraded nature?
Oh, we do have a good exchange going here ![[Animated Laughter]](graemlins/laugh.gif) , though I can't stay much longer - midnight here, and I'm doing St John Ambulance first aid cover in the morning for a cross country run.
Sister White used the word degraded..., and Nichol used Rom 8:3...:sinful. Nichol's wording quoted by you must be the post-fall Adam. Given her 'degraded', and his 'sinful flesh', Nichol's phrase "like the first man Adam, a nature free from every defiling taint of sin, but capable of responding to sin..." must mean both sinful nature of fallen Adam and lack of sinning - "free from every defiling taint of sin", yet capable of falling to temptation....No defilement, but human and sinful.
What an example! The Second Adam in all the glory of God.
Colin
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