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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16159
11/17/05 04:10 AM
11/17/05 04:10 AM
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OP
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John, I agree that Jesus resisted the unholy clamorings, the sinful thoughts and feelings produced by His fallen flesh nature, not as an unconverted, unsaved sinner, but as a born again believer. Nevertheless, sinful flesh nature works the same way in both sinners and saints and Jesus alike. The difference is not in how it tempts humans, but in how humans react and respond to it.
John, I’m still not sure what you believe about holy flesh. I know you think my view is similar to holy flesh, but I’m still not clear about your view. By the way, I believe our sinful flesh nature will continue to bombard us with temptations, in the form of unholy thoughts and feelings, until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
1. What is it about my view that reminds you of holy flesh?
2. What do you believe about sinful flesh nature?
3. Do you believe it generates and communicates, to our conscious mind, tempting unholy thoughts and feelings?
4. Or, do you believe they originate elsewhere?
5. Do you believe that, in Christ, internally generated tempting thoughts and feelings cease to enter our conscious mind?
6. Can Jesus be merely a guest, rather than master, in our hearts? Is there room for Satan and Jesus in our hearts? Can Jesus occupy a divided throne?
7. Also, is it negative, an inverse of the truth, to emphasize walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to abide in Jesus, to partake of the divine nature – so that Jesus can 1) empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh nature, and 2) to grow in grace and knowledge, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become more and more like Jesus?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16160
11/17/05 04:23 AM
11/17/05 04:23 AM
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Tom, the average Christian is not even concerned about temptations. The majority are simply giving in, going along with the flow, putting up little or no resistance, and what little resistance they do produce is not of God, but of self, and the resulting fruits are, therefore, nothing but filthy rags of self-righteousness.
Do you agree?
Some of what John has posted had been a blessing to me. For instance, the way he talks about needing to govern ourselves in the same way Jesus did. But I'm not sure about his views regarding the role of sinful flesh nature after we are born again, about the presence of internally generated temptations. I, too, am concerned about John's view of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity. A non-trinitarian view of Jesus and Holy Spirit has a negative impact upon these issues.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16161
11/16/05 08:26 PM
11/16/05 08:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Tom, the average Christian is not even concerned about temptations. The majority are simply giving in, going along with the flow, putting up little or no resistance, and what little resistance they do produce is not of God, but of self, and the resulting fruits are, therefore, nothing but filthy rags of self-righteousness. Do you agree? I agree as to the effect, but not the cause. You state the problem is due to not resisting temptation, but I would say rather the cause is due to resisting God's Spirit. This isn't just a semantical difference, but a vital point to understand. If we resist the work of God's Spirit, then that will be manifest in a lack of ability to overcome temptations, but not resisting temptations is an effect, not a cause. The Spirit of Prophecy states that God will accomplish His purposes in us if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. She also says the root of all sin is unbelief. So the cause is a lack of faith, i.e. not believing/trusting/responding in/to God. One of the effects is sin. Just as faith always results in works, unbelief always results in sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, is another way of putting. The solution is understanding what faith is, and exercizing it.Some of what John has posted had been a blessing to me. For instance, the way he talks about needing to govern ourselves in the same way Jesus did. But I'm not sure about his views regarding the role of sinful flesh nature after we are born again, about the presence of internally generated temptations. I, too, am concerned about John's view of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity. A non-trinitarian view of Jesus and Holy Spirit has a negative impact upon these issues. I'll have to read more of what he has to say. John wrote this:
quote:
Christ took on the same sinful flesh like you and I have. Christ took on the same faculties; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual that you and I have. However, he did not govern them in the same way that the unconverted do. The means and ways of governance, that are his, are and always were available to every being.
I agree with this, and think it is well stated. It's also a very good point. John has a different way of expressing himself (which, of course, we all do). When I have understood what John is saying, I have found it to be in harmony with how I think to a great degree. Regarding the things I don't understand, I'll have to wait and see how the thoughts are developed to see if there's really a fundamental difference involved, or if it's merely a different form of expression.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16162
11/17/05 03:49 PM
11/17/05 03:49 PM
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quote:
You state the problem is due to not resisting temptation, but I would say rather the cause is due to resisting God's Spirit.
Actually, I believe it is both. That is, we get the power to resist internally and externally generated temptations from the Holy Spirit. It is we, not God, who resists temptations and develops Christlike traits of character.
COL 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}
FW 48
In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2}
FW 26
God has given men faculties and capabilities. God works and cooperates with the gifts He has imparted to man, and man, by being a partaker of the divine nature and doing the work of Christ, may be an overcomer and win eternal life. The Lord does not propose to do the work He has given man powers to do. Man's part must be done. He must be a laborer together with God, yoking up with Christ, learning His meekness, His lowliness. God is the all-controlling power. He bestows the gifts; man receives them and acts with the power of the grace of Christ as a living agent. {FW 26.1}
"Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies." You and I believe this conflict, the warfare against internal foes, will continue and intensify as we become and more like Jesus until the day He returns. John and Rosangela, on the other hand, believe otherwise. John seems to be saying that the mind and voice of our sinful flesh nature ceases to tempt us when wer'e born again, and Rosangela seems to be saying it gradually dies out after we are born again.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16163
11/17/05 08:11 PM
11/17/05 08:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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As John has pointed out, the ability to resist temptation is always present with us. This is because Jesus is always present, through His Spirit, to empower anyone who chooses to do His will to do so. The problem is not the power to resist, but the desire to do so.
If we respond to the revelation of God's love manifest through the cross, the result will be victory of sin. If we resist this drawing, we will be overcome.
Being overcome by temptation is a symptom of a deepr problem. The starting point, and continuing and ending point, is the apprehend the height and depth and length and breadth of God's love.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16164
11/17/05 11:01 PM
11/17/05 11:01 PM
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quote:
To me the most important issue is God's character. Man was lied to, believed the lie, and must be healed from that lie. Jesus Christ came to reveal the truth about God, and we are healed when we believe that truth. There is absolutely nothing arbitrary either about God, or His law, or His judgment, or the atonement, or anything God does.
Very true Tom,
The enemy has fairly successfully veiled this lie and diverted the issue to be all sorts of works.
P.S. I am working on a post regarding governmental structure of those created in the image of God; hope to post shortly.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16165
11/18/05 03:21 AM
11/18/05 03:21 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John, I’m still not sure what you believe about holy flesh. I know you think my view is similar to holy flesh, but I’m still not clear about your view. By the way, I believe our sinful flesh nature will continue to bombard us with temptations, in the form of unholy thoughts and feelings, until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
MM: 1. What is it about my view that reminds you of holy flesh?
John: Any concept that the body can make us free or captive to sin.
MM: 2. What do you believe about sinful flesh nature?
John: The Law of sin and death does not reside in the flesh, but in the spirit of fallen man, and as such must be and is overcome now by the Law of the spirit of life. The law of sin and death is ‘the modus operandi’ of the spirit of fallen man; in simple words, the subjection of the spirit to the flesh. Thus the flesh rules the spirit.
MM: 3. Do you believe it generates and communicates, to our conscious mind, tempting unholy thoughts and feelings?
John: The communication from the flesh is: a) indiscriminate, b) learned and practiced, c) responsive. The question whether such is tempting or unholy resides with the spirit.
MM: 4. Or, do you believe they originate elsewhere?
John: see above
MM: 5. Do you believe that, in Christ, internally generated tempting thoughts and feelings cease to enter our conscious mind?
John: The communication is always active between the body and our reason; whether it is tempting has to do with spirit.
MM: 6. Can Jesus be merely a guest, rather than master, in our hearts? Is there room for Satan and Jesus in our hearts? Can Jesus occupy a divided throne?
John: That is a good question. We can comment on that at length later. Parable: Consider stranger, then consider dating, then consider marriage.
MM: 7. Also, is it negative, an inverse of the truth, to emphasize walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to abide in Jesus, to partake of the divine nature – so that Jesus can 1) empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh nature, and 2) to grow in grace and knowledge, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become more and more like Jesus?
John: It is negative to be witch-hunting for unknown sins. It is negative to think that one could ever come to the bottom of that, and it is the opposite of: looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16166
11/18/05 06:02 AM
11/18/05 06:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
It is negative to be witch-hunting for unknown sins. It is negative to think that one could ever come to the bottom of that, and it is the opposite of: looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
Amen!
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16167
11/19/05 04:39 AM
11/19/05 04:39 AM
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OP
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John, again, thank you. But the way you responded to my questions, the words you used, or whatever, still causes me to wonder what you believe about our 1) body and its role in character development, 2) mind and its role in character development, 3) willpower and its role in character development, and 4) sinful flesh nature and its role in character development.
Here's what makes sense to me:
1. Our body is seat of our lower powers, our appetites (physical needs) and passions (emotinal needs). It simply generates and communicates to our conscious mind our innocent and legitimate needs. It cannot sin or develop character.
2. Our mind is the seat of our higher powers, namely, reason, intellect, and conscience. It cannot sin or develop character.
3. Willpower governs the mind. It determines whether our mind is slave or master of our body. Depending on how we respond to various stimuli, we either develop sinful or sinless traits of character.
4. Sinful flesh nature is that part of us that intercepts the messages generated by our body and perverts them. We become aware of them as unholy thoughts and feelings. It can tempt us, but it cannot corrupt our character.
Do you agree? If not, what do you believe about each of these aspects and the role they play in character development.
Tom, what do you believe?
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Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
#16168
11/21/05 03:48 AM
11/21/05 03:48 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Christ was tempted by His desires every bit as much as we are. This is why it is said of Him, "Christ pleased not Himself."
Tom, because “Christ pleased not himself” he did not suffer those temptations. Christ was not double minded. Here are some principles taken from EW quotes that MM posted above.
quote:
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts; but the brutish part of your nature takes the lines of control and guides the spiritual. This is God's order reversed. {4T 365.3}
AG 321
To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen object of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.
Christ took on the same sinful flesh like you and I have. Christ took on the same faculties; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual that you and I have. However, he did not govern them in the same way that the unconverted do. Christ’s order of governance was according to God’s order. Desire is a faculty that in and of itself can do nothing. It only becomes alive when something is given “value”. Value is programmed by the spirit of the person. (There were several occasions when Christ was subjected to these temptations (such as the wilderness, Gethsemane, and the cross.) In those occasions Christ would do nothing.)
In that Christ said “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me”, he was not telling us here that he was struggling with his own will, but rather what his established position was. He was revealing to us the way of life; the way God meant us to be governed and the way he governs himself.
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