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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#161471
02/09/14 06:08 AM
02/09/14 06:08 AM
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Active Member 2015
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"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." {GC 36.1}
If you persist in sin, God will eventually let you suffer the consequence of sin. Sin pays its wage. When God withdraws, all hell breaks loose. God will not force you to follow Him. If you want to know what happens to sinnes and God's response to sinners, look to Christ and Him crucified.
Look, for one thing, only a familiar spirit would make someone act familiar towards someone he doesn't know, as if they are long lost buddies. My name is Brother James or Mr. Tierney, not Jim. Second, let’s look at the quote above that you have built your whole doctrine on. " He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves". This is the whole crux of your debate. Correct? This one statement itself proves you are misapplying this quote. Is there any mercy shown in the second resurrection? No there is not. So this text MUST be speaking about when there is still mercy, correct? He leaves men to die in their sins instead of saving them from them because they have neglected His mercy. How hard is that? This has nothing to do with the punishment that GOD inflicts against those who reject His mercy, it has nothing to do with the second death. I and dozens of others have supplied statements and bible verses in juxtaposition with this one quote you keep misapplying, to show you are wrong. You are so blind I can't stand it, either that or you are intentionally trying to spew confusion in the church. The quote you keep misapplying is not talking about the punishment for sin in the second death... and I would venture to say that that quote is not universal in this life either since there is so much biblical truth that you completely close your mind to, stating that God does sometimes have to get involved directly or through His ambassadors. If you can do this for this one very important subject imagine what else you are corrupting. APL, I have prayed about this matter, and God continually answers resoundingly that you are wrong about this. He has kept me in this debate for the purpose of making sure you don't continue to misapply this prophetic truth into the minds of others incorrectly without defending His truth. He has told me to leave it alone now.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#161477
02/09/14 02:39 PM
02/09/14 02:39 PM
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Posts: 6,368
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Mr. Tierney - what is the sentence against transgression? First death? Nope.
There are many many examples in the Bible of how God treats sinners. And the best evidence is Jesus himself. Mr. Tierney - open your eyes to the truth about God. Christ demonstrated what the second death will be like. It is not pretty. Sin is what killed Jesus, perhaps you don't believe that. Sin is what kills the sinner. "Christ was holy, harmless, undefiled. He did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth." That is our God, our Creator.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#161489
02/09/14 11:05 PM
02/09/14 11:05 PM
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You would have us believe that God merely steps back while self, sin, and Satan execute justice and mercy upon themsleves, bringing about their own destruction without any participation from God. It's the Watchmaker leaving his creation to run on its own.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: asygo]
#161490
02/10/14 12:00 AM
02/10/14 12:00 AM
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Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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SIN is the destructive agent.
I was today reading and preparing a manuscript by Pastor Weiland on the 1888 message. The paper compares 3 views. [1] The popular Evangelical view, [2]The Contemporary Seventh-day Adventist View, and [3]The 1888 Message As Brought by Jones and Waggoner and Endorsed By Ellen G. White.
I will quote point #8.
The Evangelical view:
God will torture the lost in an ever burning hell. The doctrine of natural immortality requires this. The egocentric motif thus distorts their view of the character of God.
The Contemporary Seventh-day Adventist view:
God will torture and destroy the lost in hell-fire that annihilates.
The 1888 Message of Jones and Waggoner view:
"God destroys no man; every man who is destroyed will destroy himself." Sin, not God, destroys the wicked. The second death is a merciful thing to end their real misery.
Which view is most popular in the SDA church still?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#161495
02/10/14 03:10 AM
02/10/14 03:10 AM
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APL,
Are you saved by faith? Then you cannot be saved by grace, right? Are you saved by grace? Then you cannot be saved by faith, right?
Your view is too narrow. Open your eyes. Both of the last two options you listed above have truth. They are NOT (as you suppose) mutually exclusive.
Just as we can be saved both by grace and by faith, so also is both sin and God to have a part in the destruction of the wicked.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#161506
02/10/14 05:13 AM
02/10/14 05:13 AM
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Are you saved by faith? Then you cannot be saved by grace, right? Are you saved by grace? Then you cannot be saved by faith, right?
Green - you want to know the definition of Grace? Read Isaiah 53:11 and Titus 3:5-7.
Your view is too narrow. Open your eyes. Both of the last two options you listed above have truth. They are NOT (as you suppose) mutually exclusive.
Green - as I suppose? WHERE do you get this from??? I know you think my view narrow. But guess what? I think your view widely wrong.
Just as we can be saved both by grace and by faith, so also is both sin and God to have a part in the destruction of the wicked.
Yes, God has a part! He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.
Green, how would your view fulfill the last message of mercy to the world, a view that is to be illuminating on the character of God? Green - Behold your God!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#161507
02/10/14 05:20 AM
02/10/14 05:20 AM
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Green, how would your view fulfill the last message of mercy to the world, a view that is to be illuminating on the character of God? Green - Behold your God! My God has asked me to help spread the message of the third angel. I think you have stopped short of this message, or choose only the more happy part of it to give. But God wants it given in its entirety, including the first part of the message (the majority of it). Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Your focus is verse 12. My view allows verses 9, 10, and 11 as well. Seventy-five percent, or more, of the message of the third angel is exactly that which you reject. If you do not believe that you are rejecting these verses, I invite you to share with us how you are spreading this portion of the third angel's message. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#161535
02/10/14 04:27 PM
02/10/14 04:27 PM
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Green - you don't recognize that my question is based on EGW, in what she it saying is the last message of mercy, a message the is illuminating, a message the reveals the character of God, and how that fits the 3AM...
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#161562
02/11/14 03:24 AM
02/11/14 03:24 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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If you do not believe that you are rejecting these verses, I invite you to share with us how you are spreading this portion of the third angel's message. Please answer this. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#161578
02/11/14 06:13 PM
02/11/14 06:13 PM
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Posts: 6,475
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"He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves".
This is the whole crux of your debate. Correct?
This one statement itself proves you are misapplying this quote. Is there any mercy shown in the second resurrection? No there is not. So this text MUST be speaking about when there is still mercy, correct?
Well I'm not sure here, but better look at the logistics of your statement. If mercy is rejected, is there still mercy? And if there is no longer mercy, can mercy still be accepted?
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