John, your understanding of the system of salvation, the dynamics of temptation, lead me to wonder how Jesus could have been tempted in all points as we are. You seem to be saying that in Christ we cannot be tempted, that our lusts and affections are dead.

Here's what Sister White wrote about lusts and affections. Do you agree?

AH 127, 128
We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

4T 365
Ungovernable passion will not be subdued in a moment; but your lifework is before you to rid the garden of the heart of the poisonous weeds of impatience, faultfinding, and an overbearing disposition. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts; but the brutish part of your nature takes the lines of control and guides the spiritual. This is God's order reversed. {4T 365.3}

AG 321
To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen object of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. . . . After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ. {AG 321.4}

4T 47
Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers. After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ. {5T 47.1}

Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {5T 47.2}

5T 650
The enemy will seek to intrude himself even amid your religious exercises. Every avenue will need to be faithfully guarded lest selfishness and pride become interwoven with your work. If self has really been crucified, with the affections and lusts, the fruit will appear in good works to the glory of God. I entreat you, in the fear of God, not to let your works degenerate. Be consistent, symmetrical Christians. When the heart has given its affections to Christ, old things have passed away, and all things have become new. {5T 650.2}

UL 218
This the Word of God explicitly teaches, but the Lord cannot work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure unless we crucify self, with the affections and lusts, at every step. {UL 218.4}

AA 560, 561
So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

John, these quotes tell me that we can, in Christ, control our affections and lusts by resiting them, by bringing them into subjection to a sanctified mind and will, by maturing in the fruits of Spirit. But they also tell me that we cannot eliminate them, that we cannot tame them, that we cannot make them holy. In Christ we can and will refuse to act out them, but we cannot get rid of them.

MM, of course perfection and growth go on throughout eternity. It was thinking of it terms of cleansing that was a new thought to me.

John wrote, "Your questions MM lead and think in terms of the inverse and that is negative to eternal life." I see this too. We need to consider the whole picture of course, but the good news of God's character should outshine all else. It's as we behold the goodness of God that we are changed into the same image.

In James 1 where it talks about temptation, the word "lust" is simply the word "desire". If you look at the NJKV, for example, you will see it is translated "desire" rather than the archaic "lust", which has a negative connotation to us which it didn't when the KJV was written.

As we are tempted because we are drawn of our own desires, so was Christ. Christ took our nature, and was tempted as we are tempted. James defines how human beings are tempted, and that definition must apply to Christ as well, or He could not have been tempted in any point as we are tempted, let alone all.

The victory Christ provided for us was by crucifiction. Christ crucified self by denying Himself throughout His whole life. He "please not Himself." He sought not His own will, but the will of His Father. It was by His self-denial, leading all the way to death, even the death of the cross, that He abolished the enmity in His flesh, which is our flesh. We achieve victory by being crucified with Christ. We do nothing which Christ has not done before; in fact, anythin we do is only possible because Christ has opened the door.

Tom, I agree. There needs to be a balance, but when one side is emphasized to the exclusion of the other, it is needful to correct the imbalance. Like emphasizing the sabbath above the other commandments because the rest of the world is falling for the Sunday. I am beginning to suspect that John's views are eerily similar to holy flesh.

I wonder how this lines up with your "holy flesh" idea.

quote:

---

MM: Also, when we invite Jesus into the house of our hearts and minds, what kind of cleaning is left for Him to do? Are there closets of unknown sins that have yet to be discovered and revealed to us?

---

Again these questions are thinking in terms of the inverse which never brings righteousness. It is the way Satan would like us to look at things. By searching for potential unknown sins, we will never in a million years even begin to come to satisfaction. In fact we will become more and more cynical. It is called doubt and accusation. It is exactly these insinuations of potential sins which Satan leveled against Job. So if we think in terms of potential or hidden sins, we think according to the principles of Satan. The thought of potential sins is rooted in doubt and accusation. Let us never think that Christ ever thinks or works according to these principles.

God’s way is the way of faith and trust. The position of the child of God is that of:

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

God’s way is the way of life, it is uplifting, it is sanctifying, it is glorifying. Where there is goodwill, there is no illwill. Where there is faith there is no doubt. Where there is love there is no hate. So the cleansing is from sin to righteousness; from thinking in terms of sin to thinking in terms of righteousness.

Great is thy faithfulness oh God my Father!

The question was whether Jesus is in the house as guest or master.

MM, it appears to me that John and I view most things very, very similarly. He has a different way (to me) of expressing himself, so I need to be patient to understand what he is saying. But, for example, his thoughts about our rightesousness vs. God's righteousness are I find to be both profound and completely correct.

To me the most important issue is God's character. Man was lied to, believe the lie, and must be healed from that lie. Jesus Christ came to reveal the truth about God, and we are healed when we believe that truth. There is absolutely nothing arbitrary either about God, or His law, or His judgment, or the atonement, or anything God does.

I think John would agree with me on these points.

We seem to be disagreeing some on the points we are discussing here, but they are to my mind minor compared to the others, and I'm not completely sure we're not in harmony. I'd like to ask some more questions, and find out what he really means.

I agreed with this sentiment that you seem to dwell on the negative rather than the positive.

Well, to my question for John.

quote:

---

Not that the faculty of desire is wrong, but giving it improper governmental position is what causes temptation.

---

This would seem to imply that temptation comes as a result of sin, because improper governing our desires is sin. Given that Christ never sinned, He would never have been tempted as we are, according to how James defines temptation.

I believe that Jesus was tempted in exactly the way that James lays out. The difference between Christ and us is not in how He was tempted, but in the fact that He never yielded to temptation.

Christ was tempted by His desires every bit as much as we are. This is why it is said of Him, "Christ pleased not Himself."

Well, I guess I didn't ask a question, did I? So my question would be if you disagree with what I've written here?

It appears to me that you are emphasizing not Christ's human nature, which you have affirmed is like ours, but different issues. I agree with how you see Romans 7 and 8, and the gospel in general. I agree also with your thoughts regarding the spirit, faith, the flesh, etc. although I would use different language.

One other thing I'm not clear about is your thoughts about the Holy Spirit, but that would probably be better treated on another thread.

Your thought about God guiding us with His eye has been a great blessing to me.