The fruit was harmless "up to the moment of God's prohibition", quoting EGW.

Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

Man is God's property, and the ruin that has been made of the living habitation, the suffering caused by the seeds of death sown in the human system, are an offense to God.-- Letter 73, 1896. – Medical Ministry, page 229. {Te 87.5}

Hm - Christ did not plant the seeds of death in the system, Satan did. EGW tells us the seeds also affect plants.

Adam was required to render perfect obedience to God, not only in his own behalf, but in behalf of his posterity. God promised him that if he would stand the test of temptation, preserving his allegiance to the Creator during the great trial to which he would be subjected, his obedience would ensure his acceptance and favor with God. He would then be forever established in holiness and happiness, and these blessings would extend to all his posterity. But Adam failed to bear the test. And because he revolted against God's law, all his descendants have been sinners. {9MR 229.1}

What Adam did has affected all of his descendants, all have inherited mortality, it is genetic. It is in the DNA which contains the laws of how the body works. And not only humans, but all life has been affected. Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:

Eve was told that there was nothing bad in the tree, that its fruit was of such a character as would give increased knowledge. Does not Satan come to us in just that way? Does he not present attractions, and try to make us believe that if we will pursue a certain course, contrary to the law of God, something will be gained by it? But after they had yielded to the temptations of Satan, Adam and Eve found that they had met with terrible loss, and so will everyone in our world who yields to the temptations of the enemy to indulge appetite, find that it is a fearful loss to them. {9MR 232.3}

Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}
In drooping flower and falling leaf Adam and his companion witnessed the first signs of decay. Vividly was brought to their minds the stern fact that every living thing must die. Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}

Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil. {Ed 26.4}

OK Green, dedication, please tell me what these seeds of death are, certainly you know. The seeds that have affected all nature, are in the very air we breath! These seeds which were planted when by Satan when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Perhaps they were on the fruit not in it. Perhaps by eating the fruit Satan was freed up to inject them into the system. But these seeds are the cause of the curse, they are every where according to EGW. God's second book it telling us what they are, have you read it? Please! Tell us.

The crux of this series, and this debate, is what causes death.

One side says eternal death comes from disobedience, disloyalty, distrust, disbelief, rejection, etc. The other side says eternal death comes from malicious proteins that invade our genetic material.

One side says the problem is one of character, the other says it's one of chemistry.

The fruit was harmless "up to the moment of God's prohibition", quoting EGW.

Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

Man is God's property, and the ruin that has been made of the living habitation, the suffering caused by the seeds of death sown in the human system, are an offense to God.-- Letter 73, 1896. – Medical Ministry, page 229. {Te 87.5}

Hm - Christ did not plant the seeds of death in the system, Satan did. EGW tells us the seeds also affect plants.

Adam was required to render perfect obedience to God, not only in his own behalf, but in behalf of his posterity. God promised him that if he would stand the test of temptation, preserving his allegiance to the Creator during the great trial to which he would be subjected, his obedience would ensure his acceptance and favor with God. He would then be forever established in holiness and happiness, and these blessings would extend to all his posterity. But Adam failed to bear the test. And because he revolted against God's law, all his descendants have been sinners. {9MR 229.1}

What Adam did has affected all of his descendants, all have inherited mortality, it is genetic. It is in the DNA which contains the laws of how the body works. And not only humans, but all life has been affected. Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:

Eve was told that there was nothing bad in the tree, that its fruit was of such a character as would give increased knowledge. Does not Satan come to us in just that way? Does he not present attractions, and try to make us believe that if we will pursue a certain course, contrary to the law of God, something will be gained by it? But after they had yielded to the temptations of Satan, Adam and Eve found that they had met with terrible loss, and so will everyone in our world who yields to the temptations of the enemy to indulge appetite, find that it is a fearful loss to them. {9MR 232.3}

Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}
In drooping flower and falling leaf Adam and his companion witnessed the first signs of decay. Vividly was brought to their minds the stern fact that every living thing must die. Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}

Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil. {Ed 26.4}

OK Green, dedication, please tell me what these seeds of death are, certainly you know. The seeds that have affected all nature, are in the very air we breath! These seeds which were planted when by Satan when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Perhaps they were on the fruit not in it. Perhaps by eating the fruit Satan was freed up to inject them into the system. But these seeds are the cause of the curse, they are every where according to EGW. God's second book it telling us what they are, have you read it? Please! Tell us.

I was able to restore the last post here.

Actually, there are several sides to the story. Some say sin does not kill, but God does kill.

As to disobedience, disloyalty, distrust, disbelief, if you can, tell me how that causes animals to get cancer, plants to get cancer and disease. Answer, you can't. And note it is not proteins, but nucleic acid that is proposed to be the issue.

You divorce character from chemistry? Really? Please tell me how that works! What happens to character when one uses alcohol or smokes pot? Does chemistry affect character? The mystery is not chemistry, but free will. How did God design that into the system. And note, the only reason we still have a choice is by the grace of God as Satan has highjacked the system. "Dead in trespasses and sins;" "the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;" "no soundness in it." We are held fast in the snare of Satan, "taken captive by him at his will." Ephesians 2:1; Isaiah 1:5, 6; 2 Timothy 2:26.

That's closer to misquoting Ellen White than to quoting. Here's a little more, for better understanding (italices supplied).



In other words, the fruit never was harmful. The act of disobedience in eating that which God had forbidden was harmful.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

When I teach young children it often surprises me how literal they take things. Expressions we use and understand in their intended meaning, these youngsters take literal.

A person might say "that's a real can of worms", and the little fellow will think you are talking about real worms.

Now how about the phrase "plant the seeds of...."?

Let's look at a few uses of that phrase by EGW:

"No longer cultivate your doubts by expressing them and pouring them into other minds, and thus becoming an agent of Satan to sow the seeds of doubt. Manuscript 42, 1890

Scientific research becomes misleading, because its discoveries are misinterpreted and perverted. The word of God is compared with the supposed teachings of science, and is made to appear uncertain and untrustworthy. Thus the seeds of doubt are planted in the minds of the youth, and in time of temptation they spring up. COL 41

There are those in responsible positions who, by their words and actions, sow seeds of doubt and unbelief. These seeds are called tares by our Lord; and those who sow it are under the guidance of evil angels.

The authors of these books, which have sown the seeds of doubt and infidelity broadcast over the world, have been under the training of the great enemy of God and man, the acknowledged head of principalities and powers, the ruler of the darkness of this world. CT 424

Poisoned with error themselves, they have watched every opportunity to sow the seeds of doubt in other minds. Nature is exalted above the God of nature, and the simplicity of faith is destroyed; for the foundation of faith is made to appear uncertain. Befogged in skepticism, the minds of those who doubt are left to beat on the rocks of infidelity.--The Youth's Instructor, January 31, 1895

There is nothing more precious in the sight of God than His ministers, who go forth into the waste places of the earth to sow the seeds of truth AA 369

We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. COL 84

It is because the human heart is inclined to evil that it
is so dangerous to sow the seeds of skepticism in young minds. Whatever weakens faith in God robs the soul of power to resist temptation. It removes the only real safeguard against sin CT 377


Anyone can see these aren't literal seeds, but rather words and actions that "plant" wrong thoughts into minds.

It's using the planting harvesting routines as a means to convey how words can introduce wrong thoughts into people's minds which then "grow" into bigger thoughts in that persons mind choking out thoughts of faith.

Or in the positive -- "seeds of truth" or words and discussions of God's truth also "plant" thoughts in peoples minds that can grow and fill their minds with Gods' truth.

"Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap
For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal.6:7-9

Also, if we sow healthy habits our chances reaping good health are good, if we sow unhealthy habits, our chances of reaping bad health are good.
However, we are also the products of 6000 years of sinning ancestors which has greatly weakened the human race, and we "reap" a bitter harvest due to someone else's "sowing".


Yes, when Adam and Eve sinned it "planted" the "seeds" of evil, but these weren't literal seeds, they were wrong thoughts of doubt, distrust, lack of faith, selfish, self defending "Not my fault it's that woman You gave me." "It's not my fault, it's that serpent you made". -- Blaming God? Talk about "seeds" (thoughts) of doubt and rebellion taking root in their minds due to their disobedience (not some chemical in the fruit)

And yes, wrong habits and wrong thoughts do affect us physically. But it is still the wrong thoughts and wrong habits that cause stress and imbalance in our bodies, its not an infusion of some acid.

We make our own hurtful "acid" by sinning.

AGREE

That's a different thread. The series under discussion raises the very important question: Is sin a matter of character or chemistry?


I wan't there, so I don't know. LOL

Seriously, you're not really getting on anyone's case about not answering questions, right? Really? Not from the one who can't clearly answer a question about the relationship among God's command, Adam's death, and MGEs in the fruit.

But your main confusion here, I think, is one of cause and effect. I believe physical problems are an effect of sin, which is a character issue. You jumble sin and character and physical problems all into the package of MGEs. And Adam's eating the forbidden fruit clearly shows a conceptual gap in the theory.


Yes, that's right. I stand corrected. I fail to see the substantive difference between sin as proteins or sin as nucleic acid, but you are right.


No, I don't divorce them; I distinguish between them. I know it's a subtle point, but crucial.

As for freewill, you don't believe in it if you believe that our actions and characters are governed by mere chemistry. Chemical reactions, including those of genetic material, are described by probabilistic expressions of the wavefunction (see Schrodinger's equation). There's no freewill in there; just numbers. As Melashenko points out, it's all in the numbers. So you can forget your freewill because it's all a matter of which MGEs you have. Assuming the theory is correct.

And if you happen to breathe in bad MGEs, it's not even your fault because choice has nothing to do with it.

And we haven't even touched the concept of the restored genetic material in Christ's blood being the agent of physical restoration in our bodies, leading to eternal life. What kind of physical explanation do you have for that?

Ditto.