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Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #161826
02/14/14 11:06 PM
02/14/14 11:06 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
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Western, USA
He presents many pieces of evidence. The conjecture is not pulled out of a hat. He pieces together the Bible and science. It fits. What he has purposely done is to not include EGW in his talks because of the target audience. But if he did, his case would be much stronger!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #161829
02/15/14 01:49 AM
02/15/14 01:49 AM
asygo  Offline
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Stronger? It can't even address the fact that EGW said if God had not prohibited the fruit, there would have been no harm. The theory postulates that sin is a physical event, not a spiritual one.

The pieces might fit, but your underlying paradigm leads to the wrong picture.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #161831
02/15/14 01:59 AM
02/15/14 01:59 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Yes, stronger. In fact article upon article of EGW's fits together. And it is stronger when you take it all as a whole.

God prohibition - this has been addressed. Sorry you don't like it, I can't make you accept it.

The mistake is separating spiritual and physical. They are bound together. We are God workmanship. We are created beings. Is there a soul that is injected into the physical or separate from the physical? NO. But perhaps you think there is.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #161834
02/15/14 02:09 AM
02/15/14 02:09 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: APL
What caused the fall? distrust or disobedience? You used both in the quote above. Which? EGW above said that diselief LED to her fall. The fall was by disobedience, and that disobedience was what? EATING of the fruit. No eating, no fall.



Eve would never have eaten the fruit if she won't have first distrusted God's Word and believed the lies of the antagonist.
True -- if she would have dismissed those doubts and said -- "no, I will believe God and obey Him", and walked away, all would have been fine. But she didn't dismiss them, instead she acted upon them and thus she fell. It was the DISTRUST of God, that enabled her to disobey and eat.

Originally Posted By: APL
Guess what, we will need to eat of the Tree of Life in the world to come.

Exactly -- Adam and all his descendants (as well as all living creatures) were cut off from the tree of life.

Cut off from the tree of life -- meant they would die, they didn't need any MGE's in the fruit -- there was nothing wrong with the fruit itself.
They chose to listen to the antagonist instead of to the Creator and thus were "cut off" from the tree of life.


What happened afterward?
Once barriers in a person's mind and character against sin are broken down, the person looses the power to resist sin. We see that happening even today. How many lives are ruined because a young person was pressured to do a wrong act, something he didn't want to do and had no intentions of doing, but peer pressure pushed him into it and once that first breach was made, he soon finds himself deeper and deeper in that sin. Indeed "It is the nature of sin to increase".

There is no question that things got bad after the fall.



Though it seems strange that Adam and Eve had to have an MGE infusion through the fruit,
yet Satan would have "reaped the results of sin" (as in dropping dead from the poison of MGE's???) with no one to give him an MGE infusion?

To me the obvious answer is --
it's not the negative effect of MGE's, they are only another result of sin, not the cause of sin in the first place.

The cause of sin is distrusting God and believing the antagonist, the rest of the bad stuff follows.


James 1:15-16 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.




Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #161835
02/15/14 02:22 AM
02/15/14 02:22 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
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California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
To answer your question, it is not hard to envision the possibility of Satan gaining the ability to wreak havoc on human nature after Adam enslaved himself by disobedience. Having chosen a new master, he lost the full protection of God. Furthermore, having become the ruler of the world, Satan could also mnipulate the rest of earth.

So I view all this, including MGE's, as a result of sin. This theory postulates that MGE's are the very definition of sin.


Again - ignoring the evidence. Destroying the law of God which is written on every nerve, muscle and fiber is not sin in your oppinion. Sin is real, Satan is its AUTHOR. And where is this information encoded?

Recall the parts on information theory. Melashenko says information is the key to everything. He said that sin is any change to the information system.

So what came first, Adam's information system being changed, or him eating the fruit? Despite all the evidence you can muster, one bad data point always send a good scientist back to the drawing board. You don't just keep repeating your favorite data points over and over. That's basic science.

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Salvation from bad character or bad chemistry? Yes, that's a good question.

There's no question that chemistry and character are closely related, but you are wrong to say they are the same.

You might claim that you said no such thing. But your premises lead to that conclusion, even if you haven't realized it yet. Study Eden and it will become clearer.


You are right - I am NOT saying they are the same, but they are indeed tightly linked.

Melashenko says information is always and only encoded on physical storage systems. And where is character stored? In the chemistry of the body.

Like I said, you probably haven't realized it yet, but this theory makes them one and the same. Look at Eden and try to fit the theory with the data; it will become clearer.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #161836
02/15/14 02:27 AM
02/15/14 02:27 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
God prohibition - this has been addressed. Sorry you don't like it, I can't make you accept it.

Your best answer was "I wasn't there so I don't know." You admit that's a non-answer. This is the level and quality of "addressed" that we have with this theory.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #161837
02/15/14 02:41 AM
02/15/14 02:41 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
No, it is not the level of quality. There is much more evidence. Can I say precisely. No. And it may be a long time before we see past our dark glasses. However, the theory that man, the workmanship of God, can easily self-destruct also has no support. The evidence is that Devil is the "author" of sin and it is he that has attacked God's creation. And using God's second book, I do believe we can see evidence in what he did, and how he did it. I also see our hopelessness unless God intervenes.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #161838
02/15/14 02:44 AM
02/15/14 02:44 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Let me put it another way:


God forbid

God NOT forbid

Satan damaged fruit

1. Adam dies? Yes / No

2. Adam dies? Yes / No

Satan NOT damaged fruit

3. Adam dies? Yes / No

4. Adam dies? Yes / No


As far as I can see, the theory cannot give a clear answer to any of this.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #161839
02/15/14 02:55 AM
02/15/14 02:55 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
However, the theory that man, the workmanship of God, can easily self-destruct also has no support. The evidence is that Devil is the "author" of sin and it is he that has attacked God's creation.

It should be fairly easy to see, actually: God gives life and upholds every aspect of His creation, and any disconnection from God results in lack of cohesion and life.

Adam self-destructed when he did that. So did Satan, one who was next to God. It works that way across the board.

God told us how to avoid that fate. There's a reason why they are not merely statements or suggestions, but commands. Any deviation necessarily ends in death.

The problem I see with this theory is that the "deviation" from God is defined as manipulation of genetic material. What I find in the Bible and SOP as deviation from God is founded on doubting God's love, distrusting God's word, disobeying God's commands. That's how it happened in Eden, and that's how it happens today.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #161842
02/15/14 03:03 AM
02/15/14 03:03 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Hm - any deviation ends in death - - not execution? I'm glad to see you are recognizing this part of the truth.

Adam self-destructed.. What was Adam's prohibition? Not to eat of the fruit. No eating, no fall. it is quite simple really. It was a EAT prohibition, not a THINK prohibition.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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