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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161676
02/12/14 09:37 PM
02/12/14 09:37 PM
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Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices. Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hmmmm.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161677
02/12/14 09:47 PM
02/12/14 09:47 PM
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Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices. Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners. Unfortunately, MM, you words remind me too much of the words of a certain serpent in the Garden of Eden. Is your soteriology based on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, as I asked before?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161678
02/12/14 09:49 PM
02/12/14 09:49 PM
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MM: "Sin does not kill". This is a most profound belief. I guess, sin is really not that bad. What can sin do? Did God kill Christ? NO. Christ was slain by the sin of the world.
Psalms 34:21-22 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. 22 The LORD redeems the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.
James 1:12-15 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Johann]
#161732
02/13/14 05:32 PM
02/13/14 05:32 PM
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M: Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices. Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. M: The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners. J: Is your soteriology based on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, as I asked before? No, it's based on Genesis 3:22 (see quote above). Ellen White elaborates: Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}
Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." This was Satan's first lesson upon the immortality of the soul, and he has carried on this deception from that time to the present, and will carry it on until the captivity of God's children shall be turned. I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, and they were driven from the garden, lest they should partake of the tree of life, and be immortal sinners. The fruit of this tree was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed that flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of the family of Adam has passed that flaming sword, and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner." The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1} Again, the fact sinners would live forever (immortal sinner) if they had regular access to the tree if life is proof sin does not kill. Of course, as I said above, the results of sinning may or may not cause first death (it depends on whether or not Jesus intervenes and prevents it).
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161738
02/13/14 07:45 PM
02/13/14 07:45 PM
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I want to change the approach. Are there other possibilities of looking at this, MM? Would you be willing to spend an hour a day at the foot of the cross (my words) and contemplate. See how sin killed the Son of God that you may live.
Why did Jesus cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Then spend another half hour contemplating the meaning of 1 Tim. 6:11-16: 2 Tim. 1:8-14.
God does not impose a painful death on His dying children, but gives them, through Jesus Christ, a living access to God,"who alone has immortality."
"For God so loved the world. . ."
Last edited by Johann; 02/13/14 08:39 PM. Reason: I changed the introdction but not the contents
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Johann]
#161740
02/13/14 08:25 PM
02/13/14 08:25 PM
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My God is a savior and not an executioner. What is your god?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Johann]
#161742
02/13/14 08:51 PM
02/13/14 08:51 PM
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Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Johann]
#161744
02/13/14 09:26 PM
02/13/14 09:26 PM
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God does not impose a painful death on His dying children, but gives them, through Jesus Christ, a living access to God,"who alone has immortality."
"For God so loved the world. . ."
While many of us may die in peace, God did impose a painful death on the Son of God. "He bore insult and mockery, and a most painful death in the most shameful manner, in order that he might exalt and save the fallen sons and daughters of Adam from hopeless misery." -- Ellen White. In another statement Mrs. White tells us that "for our sakes he endured the most ignominious and most painful death which it was possible for mortals to experience; a death which was appropriate for the basest of criminals was that which the Lord of Glory suffered to ransom guilty man." Our ransom required such a death as Jesus suffered. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#161745
02/13/14 10:04 PM
02/13/14 10:04 PM
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"a most painful death"
Did God torture Him?
Oh, wait, do I see you did say that. But Ellen White did not.
Don't suppose that will make a difference to your opinion....
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#161746
02/13/14 10:09 PM
02/13/14 10:09 PM
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Of course, as I said above, the results of sinning may or may not cause first death (it depends on whether or not Jesus intervenes and prevents it). And what causes the second life? Sin kills the first life, but God raises and kills the second life?! To answer what question? How would you answer that question, being that you already know that God kills, maims, and tortures people in the first and second life. What question would it answer? And to whom, assuming you believe only those will be saved who believe your "good news", that God kills?
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