asygo: And if you happen to breathe in bad MGEs, it's not even your fault because choice has nothing to do with it.

Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:

Our choice is not if we are going to sin, but if we are going to trust God to save us.

asygo:I wan't there, so I don't know. LOL

And there you have a problem. And your attempt to blow it off shows you can't or won't connect the dots in God's second book

asygo: That's a different thread. The series under discussion raises the very important question: Is sin a matter of character or chemistry?

NO - This is directly addressed by this thread. The subject is sin and salvation. Salvation from what?

And again, character and chemistry are combined, not separate. You are nothing without your body. There is not separate soul. As to your freewill, Satan is out to remove your freewill, God's design is to give it to us.

dedication in her accusations of being a child: please explain the following quote: "Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death." Are our thoughts just floating in the air? The next paragraph, "Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil." Are trees thinking wrong? Please explain how the nature of trees and grass was affected by Adam's sin. Please!

EGW: "But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."

Hm - probably not a literal statement, right dedication? There was not any "amalgamation", which defaced the image of God, right? It was just bad thinking.

As for thinking, there is no question that our thought do affect us. The question is what was this like in the pre-fall brain? Is God's design defective such that it will self-destruct? I don't think so. God is not responsible for the origination or continuation of sin.

Can any of you show how thinking can change the genetic code? Show the science. MGEs can and do.

dedication: have you listened to the lectures? I'm quote sure green has not.

You fail to see the flaw in your theory, which is easily seen when analyzing Adam's, which you steadfastly avoid. In your view, if God had placed a physical barrier to prevent physical access to the fruit, Adam could not have sinned. If God had shielded it with titanium, and Adam was working diligently to bypass the shield so he can get to the fruit, as long as he didn't actually eat it, he would have been fine. To you, Adam didn't commit sin, he ingested it.

LOL You totally missed the irony.

That was your answer that I just served up for you. That you now see it as a failed attempt to misdirect the discussion is a step in the right direction.

To answer your question, it is not hard to envision the possibility of Satan gaining the ability to wreak havoc on human nature after Adam enslaved himself by disobedience. Having chosen a new master, he lost the full protection of God. Furthermore, having become the ruler of the world, Satan could also mnipulate the rest of earth.

So I view all this, including MGE's, as a result of sin. This theory postulates that MGE's are the very definition of sin.

BTW, the theory's salvation concept of "physical blood transfusion through an unspecified action at a distance through a physical connection via the Holy Spirit" is questionable, to say the least.

Salvation from bad character or bad chemistry? Yes, that's a good question.

There's no question that chemistry and character are closely related, but you are wrong to say they are the same.

You might claim that you said no such thing. But your premises lead to that conclusion, even if you haven't realized it yet. Study Eden and it will become clearer.

This "theory" is beginning to sound a lot like pantheism. Don't we have some indication from Mrs. White that this sort of thing would come up again near the end of time?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Because is was a non-answer. One that chooses to ignore the evidence presented in the series.



Again - ignoring the evidence. Destroying the law of God which is written on every nerve, muscle and fiber is not sin in your oppinion. Sin is real, Satan is its AUTHOR. And where is this information encoded?



You are right - I am NOT saying they are the same, but they are indeed tightly linked. As I have quoted before:
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}

Where do these "hereditary tendencies" come from? It is genetic. It comes to us via Adam and Eve and their disobedience. HOW did that happen? dedication has no clue. You asygo, have been at least witness to some of the presentation from God's second book.

They should be made to understand that right physical habits promote mental superiority, intellectual power, physical strength, and that longevity depends on immutable laws; that there is no happen so, no chance about this matter. {PHJ, May 1, 1902 par. 2}

The physical significantly affects the character.

If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. ... {2SM 32.2} 

        The Scriptures teach us to seek for the sanctification to God of body, soul, and spirit. In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul. ... {2SM 32.3} 

... When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .  {2SM 33.3} 

Lest you presume to claim this is all about holy flesh, it is not. Christ came in sinful flesh and upheld the law of God and "developed a perfect character" which He offers to us. Our chemistry is waring against us. We are also nothing without our chemistry.

It's true we need to trust God to save us, and it was by NOT TRUSTING God that sin entered into the world and with it followed death.




Salvation from sin, -- we need a clean heart (not the blood pumper, but the emotions, desires and attitudes) -- a pure mind, as in pure and wholesome thoughts, right reasoning and godly plans.

Salvation from sin must take place now, and to the overcomers in Christ will be given life eternal.



It's true that without Christ's death upon the cross, which opened the door of redemption, and His Holy Spirit working upon our minds, we would have no choice, but thanks be to this matchless gift, -- we do have a choice.

Character affects the chemistry of our being, which in turn affects character, but they are not the same thing.
Disobedience, distrust, and taking the word of the antagonist against the Word of God, did result in chemical surges within the system hither to inexperienced. Negative emotions have a profound effect upon the system.
However that is different from chemistry being infused into the fruit etc.


I'm sorry you took that as an accusation -- it was meant to be an example. Somehow it made you totally miss all the examples I gave on how the phrase "the seeds of ....were planted" were used.




They were cast out of the Garden in which was the tree of life. They had lost their robe of light.



All nature groans because of man's sin.
All I have to do is read what people do to animals in their greed, cruelty and love for violence -- it's absolutely sickening.

There is no question that sinful thoughts, plans and actions of people have indeed polluted the very air we breath.



There's no question in my mind that preflood people had the know how to play with genetics -- scientists are now learning that knowledge once again.
But again that is character -- man's idea that they could improve on God's creation which ended up in making confusion.




It was bad thinking and bad motives, that caused pre-flood people to mess around with genetics thinking they could improve on God's creation.
Just as it is very bad thinking and bad motives that is causing people like Monsanto to force upon the world genetically modified seeds with all kinds of pesticides and inability to reproduce programed into them.



No it is not defective, but yes, it will self destruct if deprived of a very vital ingredient.

One thing that I haven't seen in this discussion is -- (maybe it was mentioned I just missed it) but that is
THE ROLE OF THE TREE OF LIFE.

Adam and Eve needed to partake of the tree of life in order to have unending life.

Why? -- Probably because created beings do not have immortality within themselves. Adam was created out of dust, and needed access to the tree of life to maintain youth and vigor in order to live forever.



From what I understand -- the cycles of life and death were never part of the garden of Eden which contained the tree of life. Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden and could not enter it. The country outside the garden was apparently also closed off from the Garden.
Later the garden was taken to heaven where it awaits the redeemed who will again have access to the tree of life.


Mankind is not immortal.
God alone has immortality within Himself.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 "the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality,

She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. {PP 55.2}

What the disbelief the fall, or is it what led to her fall? The latter.

IF you have been listening to the lectures, and that is not yet clear to me you have, then you would know the relationship of MGE to the mind and the association between them and their tendency to give selfish behavior, and indeed many (all?) mental illnesses. It is genetic.

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. {MH 175.1}


Again - it is not evident you have listened to the series or to the science. What caused the fall? distrust or disobedience? You used both in the quote above. Which? EGW above said that diselief LED to her fall. The fall was by disobedience, and that disobedience was what? EATING of the fruit. No eating, no fall.


No, I did not miss them at all. I understand it as you stating it as truth, not an accusation. Read {2SM 288.2} again. These seeds of death also caused tares, noxious plants. How does this come from wrong thinking exactly? Please, provide the evidence.


OH - I SEE - animals only suffer because of what men do to them! Are you kidding me? Please explain noxious plants. Have you read Genesis 3 recently and the 3 curses? These curses are caused by sin. The science is clear, and you can hear this in the lecture series.


There is more from EGW which you may have missed or just do not know. Where do all the various species we now have come from? God?

Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {1SP 78.2}

Lets see, this was EGW writing in the 1800s. When did this amalgamation happen? After the flood and before the 20th century.


Again you need to know the series. Also concerning Monsanto, HOW does Monsanto inject genes into plants? MGEs.


Probably??? Guess what, we will need to eat of the Tree of Life in the world to come.

There is must more the series that has been discussed here. The information in the DNA caused by mobile genetic elemens has been a disaster to ALL life. This is my conjecture now, I don't have evidence for this, but after sin entered, if Adam and Eve had been able to eat the fruit of the tree of life, which is what Satan was hoping for, that salvation would not have been possible for the physiological effect of the tree of life, and it clearly has a real physiologic effect according to EGW, would have integrated the added information in the system such that it could not be removed and still keep you, you. Again, I admit this is my conjecture. What we do know, is that after sin, the TOL would have perpetuation a life of misery, not happiness. And if the idea of the series is correct, this would have multiplied with time. It was an act of mercy on God's part to stop access to the TOL.

In how short a time from the first sin of Adam did sin increase and spread like the leprosy. It is the nature of sin to increase. {ST, December 20, 1877 par. 2}

In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3}



I agree! And not only is Mankind not immortal, all creatures of God are mortal. And that includes who? Satan and the angels. Therefore, why does God have to torture and kill sinners? Because they are immortal? No. God does not do this. God allows the nature effects of sin to go to completion. As EGW says of Satan, if he had reaped the consequence of sin in the beginning, the universe would not have understood this fact, and they would have served God from fear rather than love. At the end of the Great Controversy, this will be fully understood.

One of the fundamentals of our doctrines is at stake.

Welcome to what we experience whenever we ask you a question. LOL


Evidence? It's non-conclusive at best. Melashenko himself started the series by saying that he can't prove any of it, that it's a conjecture that sounds really good to him. Yet you regard it as evidence.