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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #161853
02/15/14 03:53 AM
02/15/14 03:53 AM
APL  Offline
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Thanks for reminding me of this article. I was interested to see my previous markings in it.

The law of Jehovah, dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Continuing on: These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellow-man. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 13}

But back up some: "The necessity of this [the law] to preserve the people of God from becoming like the nations who had not the love and fear of God, is the same in this corrupt age, when the transgression of God's law prevails and idolatry exists to a fearful extent. If ancient Israel needed such security, we need it more, to keep us from being utterly confounded with the transgressors of God's law. The hearts of men are so prone to depart from God that there is a necessity for restraint and discipline." {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 6} I guess we need to stonings today for we need to the law even more!!! Perhaps we can make it part of the church service? [grief]

Two paragraphs on the article describes how ignorant the people were who left Egypt. They were ignorant, rebellious, rejectors of God's law. God still worked with them even when they wanted to do things their way.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #161949
02/17/14 02:07 PM
02/17/14 02:07 PM
K
kland  Offline
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k: Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace (MS 126, 1901).
The question is: Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #161959
02/17/14 03:44 PM
02/17/14 03:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The Bible is clear about it. Capital punishment is not murder. It is justice.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #161995
02/18/14 01:31 PM
02/18/14 01:31 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Yes, you've said that. More than once. I think. Unless you are now changing it. You've said killing murderers is allowed, but not killing those who have not killed others.


But the question is: Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #161997
02/18/14 01:40 PM
02/18/14 01:40 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I think he's addressing the commands that God gave us, putting a distinction between two things.

However, I believe those commands prefigure what God will do in the future following the great judgment. God will capitally punish, but will not murder.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #162002
02/18/14 02:44 PM
02/18/14 02:44 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Depends upon what the definition of murder is. If you and MM define capital punishment as killing murderers, and if someone kills someone who has not killed someone else, then by your own definition, they are a murderer. Unless either God is not doing the killing or your definition is wrong.

Which then becomes the question, what is your distinction between murder and killing?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #162006
02/18/14 02:48 PM
02/18/14 02:48 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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kland,

Again, you misrepresent the truth here. Read my response to your nearly identical argument in the other thread.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #162009
02/18/14 03:15 PM
02/18/14 03:15 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
So how come you made your little fancy table chart, page after page I might add, that the only thing it said was that killing is allowed to kill the murderer?

MM clearly said only killing the murderer is allowed. Guess you disagree with him. Now.

I think we are left with, what is your distinction between killing and murder?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #162014
02/18/14 04:03 PM
02/18/14 04:03 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Western, USA
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. (God is not "a" destroyer)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #162017
02/18/14 04:20 PM
02/18/14 04:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Kland, capital punishment cases are clearly outlined in the Law of Moses.

Quote:
Exodus
19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, [that ye] go [not] up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus
20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.
20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it [is] wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.
21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Deuteronomy
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

The laws regulating capital punishment are numerous. From unruly children to Sabbath-breakers, the law is comprehensive. They were "surely put to death" in different ways - some by stoning, some by fire, and some by hanging.

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