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Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162248
02/23/14 08:09 PM
02/23/14 08:09 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Both are caused by sin.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162251
02/23/14 09:14 PM
02/23/14 09:14 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Daryl
What's the difference between the second death and any other death?
All die the first death, with a few notable exceptions. In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. The second death is the death that the wicked die for their own sin, Ezekiel 18:20, the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Bonus question - which death did Christ taste for all (Hebrews 2:9)


My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? That could only be the second death.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162252
02/23/14 09:18 PM
02/23/14 09:18 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: APL
Both are caused by sin.


How could any death be caused by anything else? Only Satan could be interested in any other idea.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162268
02/24/14 08:40 AM
02/24/14 08:40 AM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Both are caused by sin.

That's what I said, but using this paradigm's language.

But if both the 1st and 2nd death have the same exact cause, how is it that God saves everyone from the 1st but not the 2nd? As Daryl asked, what's the difference?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #162678
03/02/14 05:08 AM
03/02/14 05:08 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Definitions from one of Melashenko's slides:

INIQUITY = TE's (MGE's)

SIN = THE UNSANCTIONED CHANGING OF GOD'S INFORMATION SYSTEM (GENOME) BY EITHER DELETING OR ADDING TO THE CODE WHICH LEADS TO ADDICTION IF NOT CONTROLLED.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162681
03/02/14 05:39 AM
03/02/14 05:39 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
I'm finally on part 5.

Melashenko said that the Tree of Life would have kept them alive. This was part of his argument that sin is a physical problem since a physical solution (eating of the Tree of Life) exists.

But if sin ALWAYS kills when left to itself, and the Tree of Life could prevent death, the logical conclusion is that eating of the Tree of Life eradicates sin. Then just should have just let Adam and Eve have this antidote to sin.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162682
03/02/14 06:25 AM
03/02/14 06:25 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
It is not an antidote to sin. It would not eradicate sin.

Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. {GC 533.3}

Eating from the tree of life, would have immortalized sin! No plan of redemption! And what kind of life would that have been? We see it in our lives now. We would live on in ever increasing misery.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: Johann] #162685
03/02/14 08:31 AM
03/02/14 08:31 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,664
Canada
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Daryl
What's the difference between the second death and any other death?
All die the first death, with a few notable exceptions. In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. The second death is the death that the wicked die for their own sin, Ezekiel 18:20, the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Bonus question - which death did Christ taste for all (Hebrews 2:9)


My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? That could only be the second death.


I think we tend to compartmentalized with this first and second death idea.

As I wrote in another thread --
The wages of sin is death, and when Adam and Eve sinned, death passed on all men.
Few people seem to realize that death (the FIRST death)is the punishment of sin and it was final, with no hope. People would die the so called "first" death and that would be it for eternity.

BUT then Christ took our sins upon Himself and died upon the cross.

The question -- since the punishment of sin was death and that death was eternal-- would Christ remain in the tomb because He was carrying all our sins?

We are told that doubt was even in Jesus mind as he hung upon the cross.
The first death WAS FINAL and the question was huge -- would this be the end of Christ?

But because He Himself was totally without sin, sinless, the grave could not hold Him, and broke open the prison house of death. It is ONLY because Christ conquered this first death and burst forth from the tomb that there will be a resurrection.

Because of what Christ did, everyone resurrected -- everyone of us.

Christ will never die a second time, but those who rejected Christ's marvellous gift of life, will die again, because they rejected what Christ did for them.

In mercy God will not allow them to live in the agony of knowing what they have lost and die the slow death of aging and the shutting down of the body that people often experience in the first death. The end for them will be quick and complete.

Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: APL] #162686
03/02/14 08:50 AM
03/02/14 08:50 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,664
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL


Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. {GC 533.3}

Eating from the tree of life, would have immortalized sin! No plan of redemption! And what kind of life would that have been? We see it in our lives now. We would live on in ever increasing misery.

And so God took away the tree of life so people would die. Pulled the plug to the life giving tree so people would die.
That was the punishment for their sin.

If this is done by the mercy of God (which I won't argue against)
why would one question the mercy of God in ending the increasing misery of sin caused by a group or nation whose "cup of iniquity" was full, as in sending fire to destroy Sodom, so others could live in a society more conducive for people accepting salvation and the ways of life and righteousness that God offered.





Re: The Science of Sin and Salvation - Study Series [Re: asygo] #162687
03/02/14 09:00 AM
03/02/14 09:00 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,664
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
I'm finally on part 5.

Melashenko said that the Tree of Life would have kept them alive. This was part of his argument that sin is a physical problem since a physical solution (eating of the Tree of Life) exists.

But if sin ALWAYS kills when left to itself, and the Tree of Life could prevent death, the logical conclusion is that eating of the Tree of Life eradicates sin. Then just should have just let Adam and Eve have this antidote to sin.

I see your point. If sin caused some kind of "rearrangement" of the DNA code (or whatever the scientific formula theorized) then eating from the tree of life should fix that messed up "rearrangement" and destroy those MGE invaders that were injected by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge.
And since "the MGE give the propensity to the behaviors we call sin," then eating of the tree of life would be getting rid of those propensities that causes people to sin.

Therefore there would be no "increase of misery" because the chemical situation that causes sin would be no longer in our system.
The tree of life would indeed be the antidote to sin.

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