What is THE punishment for sin? The second death. All who die the first death will live again. Eating from the TOL as EGW says, immortalizes sin. There is no plan of redemption after that. It is in mercy that God withheld the fruit.

Did God kill Christ? That is your answer to how God is involved with the death of the sinful in the end. Christ died the sinner's death. And God did not touch Him. Sin is not a legal problem which required a legal solution to sove, break the rules, wack - your dead. No. Sin is transgression which bring death. IF the second death is God executing sinners, then there really is no free will.

So if they ate of the TOL, they wouldn't die but they would still have sin? The TOL could eliminate the wages of sin without eliminating sin itself?

That's what I said, but using this paradigm's language.

But if both the 1st and 2nd death have the same exact cause, how is it that God saves everyone from the 1st but not the 2nd? As Daryl asked, what's the difference?

That's where we differ --
The punishment for sin is death.

Why -- because the person has disconnected from life.

The deprived access to the tree of life made this more graphic to the pre-flood generations. They sinned, they were disconnected from life so they died slowly.

We are all suffering the result of sin.

If Christ would not have come and taken our sins and died that first death would have been final.
Without Christ's death upon the cross THERE WOULD BE NO CHOICE,

But even more -- if Christ had died and if He had any of His own sin upon Himself He would have remained in the grave.
And all our hopes of a resurrection would be in vain, the first death would still be final -- no life ever again,

The only reason there is a resurrection is because Christ was victorious over the tomb.

The lost already died once -- God doesn't owe them life, they rejected His gift of life. They made their choice -- why would you say there is no freedom of choice?

The very fact that Christ took our sins and took our punishment upon Himself opens wide the door of CHOICE! Without that there would be no choice as the first death would be the end.
But now there is a choice ---
Accept Him and live, reject him and you've rejected life.
Accept Him and we accept life for He is the source of life,
reject Him and we remain in the kingdom of death enslaved by sin.

Everyone is given that choice.

And yes, sin is not only a deadly problem in itself (as the first death demonstrates), it is also a legal problem. To say it isn't a legal problem is to say there is no king and there is no law, it reduces the controversy to sin being just a disease that needs to be cured.

But there is a King of Kings and there is a law. Thus there are legal implications.

Sin is more than a disease, sin is an attitude, it is rebellion, it is treason against the sovereign of the universe.

There is a lot of healing that we need, but there is also the legal aspect. Christ died so our sins are removed in a legal sense, (justification -- accounted as having no sin) His merits are credited to our account. In joy and gratitude we give our lives to Him to live in newness of life, guided by His Word and His Holy Spirit. Yes, the healing then takes place restoring us more and more into His image. But the legal aspect is very much part of the process.

The Great Controversy is over God's law and right to rule and it will show a people who want to live under God's rule and in His kingdom of life.

While others say "we will not have this man to rule over us" and God says OK, you've made your choice, here is how much I loved you and wanted you in my kingdom (and God shows them video of all that was done to save them) and then the fires come and consume all sin, and those who clung to sin and rejected Christ; the earth is made new, and God and the Lamb rule in that glorious new kingdom.

No, it is not exactly the same cause. All dies the first death because of Adam. All those will be raise to life again. Those that die the second death die for their own sin. Read Ezekiel 18. All that have not taken advantage of salvation, will suffer the consequences of their own sin, which is death, the second death. See the EGW quote above...

You are correct dedication - our views are very different. The result of sin is death. Sin is what killed Christ, sin is what causes the death. The sting of sin is death. Christ died not to pay a legal debt. Christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. Sin must be removed. Salvation is healing by definition. We do the ministry of healing, not the ministry of jurisprudence. We do not need a legal solution, we need a real solution. Being legally pardon does not change the sinner. We need a total transformation. The garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity.

1 Corinthians 15:53-56 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

I do recommend you listen to the whole series as it is not at all clear to me that you have listened to any of it by your comments.

Ezekiel 18 says that the father's sin does not transfer to the son. However, Melashenko says MGEs and damaged info systems certainly do transfer from father to son. They even transfer from inanimate objects to us, according to you. Or did I misunderstand the lectures?

According to the theory, MGEs cause all the problems: selfishness, sickness, suffering, 1st death, and 2nd death. Are you now saying that MGEs from Adam ONLY cause the 1st death, while the MGEs we get from eating pork can cause the 2nd death? I don't remember Melashenko making a distinction between 1st death MGEs and 2nd death MGEs.

Jesus never sinned Himself. Does that mean that He only died the equivalent of the 1st death? Didn't He also suffer and overcome the MGEs that cause the 2nd death?

According to the theory, sin is a genetic disorder. It is neither attitude nor rebellion nor treason. All those things are merely manifestations of a molecular malady.

According to the theory, even if A&E continually conversed with Satan, sympathized with him, and even attempted to forcibly gain access to the fruit, as long as they did not physically put the frut in their mouths, they would still be holy and sinless. That is, assuming I correctly understood Melashenko's definitions.

Ezekiel 18 says we die for our own sins. Is this speaking first death or second? Second. For all die because of Adam's sin.

All die the first death. If you are not "born again", if you do not work with God to remove your sin, then you die because of what you have done.

We have been over this ground before. All die the first death, Jesus tasted death for all men, it can't be the first death. Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law. {BTS, September 1, 1915 par. 5} What is the death that is pronounced on transgressors? The second death. But you say, Jesus never sinned? He never did an act of sin, never a sinful bahavior, that is 100% correct! So then how do you answer this verse? 1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." How did Christ have our sins "in his body"? 2 Corinthians 5:21 "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." He never did a sinful behavior, then how was he "made to be sin"? MGEs fit. EGW: By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}

Satan manipulating his information system is not rebellion or treason? Really? Interesting. You really should read what EGW has written about the problem, particularly the first part of Patriarchs and Prophets, a Great Controversy chapter 29. You will find some interesting facts. Satan is outright lying, that is an act of sin right? He is lying and yet all he needed to do is to confess and submit and he would have been reinstated to his high position. No blood sacrifice. No plan of redemption. And EGW makes an addition comment, Satan is lying, yet he had not yet sworn off allegience to God.

EGW: God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. . Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker. {GC 495.3}

Continuing.. God in His wisdom permitted Satan to carry forward his work, until the spirit of disaffection ripened into active revolt. It was necessary for his plans to be fully developed, that their true nature and tendency might be seen by all. {GC 497.1} What work? Lying? No, messing with God's law, seeking to change it!

Satan had been so highly honored, and all his acts were so clothed with mystery, that it was difficult to disclose to the angels the true nature of his work. Until fully developed, sin would not appear the evil thing it was. Heretofore it had had no place in the universe of God, and holy beings had no conception of its nature and malignity. They could not discern the terrible consequences that would result from setting aside the divine law. Satan had, at first, concealed his work under a specious profession of loyalty to God. He claimed to be seeking to promote the honor of God, the stability of His government, and the good of all the inhabitants of heaven. While instilling discontent into the minds of the angels under him, he had artfully made it appear that he was seeking to remove dissatisfaction. When he urged that changes be made in the order and laws of God's government, it was under the pretense that these were necessary in order to preserve harmony in heaven. {GC 497.2} How do you make changes to God's law? What is God's law? In the SSS series, God's law is define as the information that each organism has which controls His creation.

This is not Melashenko's idea, is the the Bible's statement of truth. Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die. Does this verse say, in the day you think, you will die? In the day you touch you will die? EGW even says Eve misspoke when she said she was not to touch it. The prohibition given to Adam was the EATING of the fruit.