APL, in post #162918, uses quotes of Mrs. White referring to those who misquote scripture, take it out of context, or put a vague or fanciful interpretation to it. He implies that I have abused scripture by quoting such passages. In rebuttal, let me say the following:

1) I presented no interpretation. I quoted the Bible only.
2) I presented an entire verse, and did not, as Mrs. White was used to say, skip anything or quote just half of it.
3) The fuller context does nothing to alleviate the situation for APL.

Here it is:



God won that war against the Egyptians. (He also won the war in Heaven against Satan and his host.) The women and people were singing the praises of the Conqueror in the passage above.

Just two chapters later, God speaks of warring again:



God encourages the people to war against their enemies, knowing that God will help and save them from their enemies.



Perhaps there was a book of "wars of the Lord," or perhaps this following passage refers to the Bible itself.



Furthermore, God asked Moses to lead the people in avenging Him of Midian.



Oh....and remember that verse most of us learned as children that says, "be sure your sin will find you out"? Check out its context!



In other words, when God commanded the people to fight, they were guiltless for carrying out His command--but SINNED if they did not!

Once again we see that God's commands represent His will. God says what He means, and He means what He says!

Joshua chapter 8 shows how God blessed as the people smote Ai with the edge of the sword, killing over 12,000 in a day. Many other stories in the Bible show how God blessed and either Himself destroyed Israel's enemies (e.g. Sennacherib's 185,000 in a night), or helped Israel destroy her enemies (e.g. Jericho).

In leading Israel to battle, Joshua was but following God's instructions. Had he not done so, had he not warred against Israel's enemies, it would have been sin for him and them.



David speaks of how God taught him to fight and war.



Isaiah says God will win in war.



Jesus also told His disciples to buy a sword if they didn't have one.



"For I am not come to send peace, but a sword."

If God were only about peace, why would Jesus say a thing like that? Certainly, God does love peace. But sometimes war is needed before peace can come.

I'm reminded of something said in the Thai national anthem: roughly translated/interpreted, it is this: "Thais love peace, but not to the point of lacking courage to fight." This is what I see our Christian ethic to be. We love peace, but we are not afraid to fight, when such is necessary. If God commands it, we must be prepared to obey-- whether that war involves physical or spiritual realms.

Does God punish? "For whom the Lord loveth, he correcteth." "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten." "The LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." "Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them...."

Selah,

Green Cochoa.

Green - take the context of the whole. Jeremiah 7:22-24 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you. 24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Who wanted to fight? The people did. God never commanded them to go up and fight and take the land by warfare. But they would not listen. They went backwards, not forwards. A PP says, it was NEVER God's purpose that they take the land by warfare. But they refused over and over and over.

Christians are never to fight and that includes self-defense. Obviously the Thai anthem is not Christian but pagan, for that is what pagans do.

And HOW do the workers of iniquity receive punishment by God? Read again GC36 and GC589. The truth is clear, and hard for most to accept because they cling to self.

GC, nice work. That's what Bible study looks like. Thank you.

APL, you force everything to fit one model - withdraw and permit principle of punishment. The Bible, however, describes several other forms of punishment. You also refuse to confess Jesus commanded capital punishment and war. You have never stated your position plainly.

The Bible speaks the model I have said as does EGW. All other aspects are God's permissive will for the blinded people that refuse to understand and walk in His ways. As I have said before and you refuse to see or understand about divorce. God hates divorce. But in God's permissive will, he gave rules for divorce. On divorce, have you read Ezra and Nehemiah recently??? God NEVER wanted the people to fight their way in to the promised land. EGW confirms. You deny. How can we get beyond this impasse? If you believe that God wanted the people to fight their way into the promised land, then you will believe that fighting is the way to go so all fighting is God's desire. So when the people fight, and God gives direction, it becomes God desire and not His permissive will as in divorce.

EGW is so clear on this. Read GC35-GC37 and Read GC589. It is stated plainly and clearly. Yet, you reject it. I cannot convince you and it is not my roll to do so.

Papacy: Kill 'em!

Followers: But shouldn't we try to convert them?

Papacy: But Jesus said, "For I am not come to send peace, but a sword."

Yes, it would have been sin to obey God's command? While I disagree that God ever commands us to commit sin, it's refreshing to see that there is one person on your side of this theological fence who is willing to state his belief.

I wonder if kland and APL will ever choose between "God commanded people to commit sin" and "God did not command murder." Or maybe they will choose another option like "murder is not always sin." But it looks like the edifice is crumbling, and the only way to slow the crash is to avoid the question. Instead of clarity, I foresee more vehemence.

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

Death - an antagonistic power. Is that God? Nope.

It sounds like you're saying God commanded capital punishment and combat but it is His permissive will and not His desire. He commanded it because they demanded it. Did I hear you correctly?

Was it a sin to obey His command to execute capital punishment and to wage war?

MM - since your memory seems to be blinded as is your perception of the truth about God, and you are in good company for we all see through a glass darkly, shall I quote for you what I posted months ago for you? I will:

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation.

God did not design that the people should do any fighting. He led them through the wilderness, in order that they might not see war. Yet He knew that if they went the way that they did, the Egyptians would surely pursue them. The children of Israel never had any greater need of fighting than they did when the Egyptians closed in on them by the Red Sea; yet the word then was, "The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace."

It may be said that the reason why the Lord did not wish them to see war was because they were as yet unprepared for fighting; but we must remember that on other occasions when they had many trained warriors, God often delivered them without their striking a blow. When we consider the circumstances of their deliverance from Egypt--how it was all accomplished by the direct power of God, without any human power, their part being only to follow and obey His word--we must be convinced that it was not according to the plan of God that they should do any fighting, even in self-defense.

I am quoting nothing new here. I have quoted it before. We are NOT to fight, kill, or even use the sword in self-defense. Do you not remember any of this?

God's people were NEVER supposed to fight. They were not to have a plurality of wives. Rahab was praised for lying! Do not think it is right to lie!

As EGW writes, So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare... Add to this how it is that God "punishes", God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. And: Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.

Your idea that God causes sickness, disease and death is totally and completely unfounded. God is the restorer and Satan is the destroyer. If God were "a destroyer", then Satan could not be "the destroyer". God's commands when the people rejected the leading of God which was most of the time, were to minimize the damage. But the statutes if they continued in them would lead to their own death and destruction. Those that kills by the sword, will be killed by the sword. David was rewarded for all his killing how? By not being allowed to build God's house. 1 Chronicles 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. That is a striking endorsement for war.