Regarding Claudia's quotes from John, we learn that we are saved not because we have chosen God, but because He has chosen us. John points out the same principle in his first letter where he states that we love Him because He first loved us. What John is getting as is not that we are saved because God took the initiative to save us, not because of any action we undertook. Of course this must be true, because of our sinful condition.

The Spirit of Prophesy comments:

quote:

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The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. Christ says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16).

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The part I marked in bold is the salient point.

That was one interesting post you quoted Tom, thanks

/Thomas

Glad you liked it.

Yes, there was an extra not in there. Thanks.

Tom

Has this person written any other papers, maybe on different subjects. It appears to me that if he (she?) is generally so good a teacher and well prepeared as this, its worth the time to read those other papers aswell.

/Thomas

I really haven't studied the Calvinist doctrine in detail. I've only studied the election. I'm willing to accept the parts of Calvinism that are Biblical. From what little I've seen, Calvinism is not biblical in some important areas.

A few years ago I discussed the topic with a Calvinist so to the extent he was versed in it, I've had some exposure to it. We had to disagree on some points.

The principles of Calvinism though when held by honest people are quite wholesome, notwithstanding their errors. If you look at the Christian Reformed and Presbyterian faith communities, you can't help but see that their religion is a positive force in their lives. I’m told Geneva, Calvin's city, is the richest in the world. The Dutch Reformed are generally like the cream that rises to the top. The Scotch Presbyterians are similar. Their world view and theology serve them well.

A few posts back John objected to my post suggesting that it makes God out to be a puppeteer. The passages I quoted though indicate that while God makes the election, the choice is still ours. The question is, how can both be true?

That is a mystery. We may not ever be able to understand it completely, but you folk ought to know me well enough to see that I enjoy the many mysteries of the Bible and that I try to set a right example by not jettisoning an idea that appears to be scriptural merely because of an apparent contradiction with an equally scriptural idea. If we are ever going to learn anything from scripture, we have to be open enough to hold things in tension in our minds at least long enough to give them a thorough review. So folk, please, please, put your Arminian faith on the shelf long enough to give this a fair shake for goodness sake!!

I think the measure is richest per capita that I'm using. In Geneva today most if not all banks have a minimum threashold for openning an account. $300K is common. Some of them will not take your money unless you open with a deposit greater than $1M.

When religion was at its peak in ancient Israel under Kings David and Solomon, the King and people gave from their surplus over $3,000 Billion dollars just for the building of the temple. In contrast, my memory of the value of the twin towers of the WTC was $40 billion. That gift was given some time before Solomon made gold as common as lesser metals in Jerusalem. The wealth in Jersulem was unprecidented when the people served God willingly.

God promises to make those who honour His law the head technically and materially. 'You will lend to many nations but not borrow'. Granted, that was a theocracy. Wealth is not our goal. But the wise man's saying, 'Seest thou a man diligent in all his ways? He shall stand before kings. He shall not stand before mean men," still applies.