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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16313
09/25/05 12:27 PM
09/25/05 12:27 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Talking about election?
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16314
09/25/05 12:35 PM
09/25/05 12:35 PM
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quote:
A few posts back John objected to my post suggesting that it makes God out to be a puppeteer. The passages I quoted though indicate that while God makes the election, the choice is still ours. The question is, how can both be true?
And my answer was
In other words the election is for all, all are predestined to sonship. This is God's purpose, will, and plan. What remains is who will accept it and 'make his call and election sure'.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16315
09/25/05 01:17 PM
09/25/05 01:17 PM
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Here is a partial list of those whom God elected to call.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Rom 10:21 … All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16316
09/25/05 05:19 PM
09/25/05 05:19 PM
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According to this list, which only includes European cities, Geneva isn't even on the list: http://www.citymayors.com/business/eurocities_gdp.html.So this bodes poorly for Calvinism. It appears to me that Singapore is the richest city per capita in the world, so I'm back to Buddhism.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16317
09/27/05 12:41 AM
09/27/05 12:41 AM
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OP
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It likely depends on how you measure wealth. Maybe you could try checking per capita income Tom. I would be surprized if either London or Singapour are at the top of that kind of list. Also, I could have this mixed up with Zurich, Zwinglie's HQ wasn't it? What was Zwinglie besides an early reformer?
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16318
09/27/05 12:50 AM
09/27/05 12:50 AM
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John you're aware that 'many are called but few are chosen.' These are not my words. They are Christ's who we know only spoke what He heard from the Father. Is there any higher authority? Here is a passage from John's gospel that Paul probably drew on more than any other when writing Romans 9. These of course are more of the sayings of Christ. quote:
6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life.
6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16319
09/27/05 01:48 AM
09/27/05 01:48 AM
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Active Member 2012
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I'm sorry, I didn't make it clear. The lists I provided *were* per capita lists. Singapore was listed as the richest city in the world on a per capita basis. Geneva wasn't even on the list of richest cities in Europe, on a per capita basis.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16320
09/27/05 02:41 AM
09/27/05 02:41 AM
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quote:
No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. (DA 387)
I think I alread quoted this. Notice the part in bold.
God is draws everyone to Himself. Only those who refuse to be drawn will be lost. The blame is not God's, but those who refuse. No one will be lost because of any lack on God's part (e.g. a lack of choosing them to be saved).
God is not willing that any should peristh, but that all should come to the love of the truth.
quote:
Christ exposed Satan's falsehoods and deceiving character, and in many hearts destroyed his corrupting influence. It was this that stirred Satan with such intense hatred. With his hosts of fallen beings he determined to urge the warfare most vigorously;for there stood in the world One who was a perfect representative of the Father, One whose character and practices refuted Satan's misrepresentation of God. Satan had charged upon God the attribute he himself possessed. Now in Christ he saw God revealed in His true character--a compassionate, merciful Father, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to Him in repentance, and have eternal life. (LHU 28)
The same exact principle is revealed here as in the other thread. All that we need to know, or can know, about God was revealed in His Son. Christ's character revealed the truth about God, which is that He is not willing that any should perish but to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The principle in Christ's words in chapter 6 are just what was commented on earlier.
quote:
The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. Christ says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16).
Let's take stock of a couple of texts which were put in bold:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
This one points out that no one can come to Christ on their own. God draws all to Himself, however, contrary to the Calvinist thought, and only those who refuse to be drawn will be lost.
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
We cannot come to Christ on our own. We are sinful and need the saving work of Christ. Of course God, not willing that any should be lost, and not a respector of persons (i.e. He does not show favortism) draws *all* to Himself, so that the only way anyone can be lost is to resist the love of God which is leading him to repentance.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16321
09/27/05 11:33 AM
09/27/05 11:33 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John you're aware that 'many are called but few are chosen.'
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The question therefore that we need to settle is whether “all are called” or a select few. We see that even Judas was called.
The next question is: Who does the choosing, responding? Is it God or us?
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16322
09/28/05 02:53 AM
09/28/05 02:53 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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We see from the above that all are drawn, and only those who resist will be lost. If we conceive as calling the same as drawing, then all are called. Even if we conceive of calling as more specific as drawing, it doensn't matter in the Arminian/Calvistic scheme of things because the dynamics are that:
1)God want everyone to be saved.
2)God has no favoritism.
3)God takes active steps to save everyone.
4)One must take active steps to counteract God's work to save in order to be lost.
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