Yes brother Daryl, I haven't forgot :-) Just be busy with our online ministry and things. By God's grace will get to it this coming week along with the other post (part 2 on Ezekiel thread)

"Godslove, the reason Miller's and his associates' interpretations are basically sound (and Smith followed their lead fairly closely on the trumpets) is they stuck to the rules of prophetic interpretation and interpreted the text as literally as possible."

Brother Mark, before posting on the "seals", I had some time this Sabbath afternoon and would be remiss if I didn't at least comment back on your posts prior. This report exposes the many flaws in Miller's et al interpretations of the Trumpets (Composed by David Clover). As I view it, our historical views are quite "unsound" and should be viewed as that. Inspiration can't be a "hit and miss" proposition as we very well know.

"William Miller was remarkably consistent in his view. Not only did he hold that the 7 churches, the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets were all representations of historical events that had occurred between 31 AD and 1844, but he also held that the 7 plagues had also occurred, and could be seen in historical events. His view can be pictured as this:

(See link)

No Adventist alive today would agree with William Miller on this view. Shortly after Jesus “failed” to appear in 1844, Adventist scholars and theologians modified the above view. After studying them in full, it was seen that the 7 last plagues were in fact yet ahead of us, and would directly proceed the 2nd coming of Jesus. Ellen White confirmed this view."


"Let’s look a little closer at the Historicist view of the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets:
here is the link for the graph:

Historical Trumpet Views


The closer you look the more complex things get! You’ll notice the string of dates at the bottom of the graph. Each of these is suggested as a possible start or stop date for the events listed. In fact, since we are in most cases dealing with subjective (rather than objective) interpretations, the SDA Bible Commentary leaves a large amount of leeway for various interpretations. Peter referred to the “sure word of prophecy.” What we have above is the “unsure” word! We are unsure about almost all the dates!

The following statement from Volume 7 of the SDA Bible Commentary, p. 753, on the close of the Pergamos period, is typical of these discussions: "Any one of various events might serve as an acceptable boundary marker for the close of this period. The deposition of the last Roman emperor in 476 marks it as one such date. The conversion, in 496, of the Frankish king Clovis, the first Germanic ruler to embrace Roman Christianity and to ally himself with the interests of the church in the conquest of other Germanic peoples, is another.

In 538 Justinians decree of 533, according the pope plenary ecclesiastical power in East and West, began to become effective.... Gregory the Great('s) (590-604)... reign as pope might be considered another such boundary.... The year of 756 marks the beginning of papal territorial rule...."[3] If one event serves just as well as the other, how can we even contend that the prophecy has a unique meaning, and that unique meaning has been fulfilled?

The 5th seal, we contend, ends in 1755, the year of the Lisbon earthquake. The 5th seal speaks of martyrs. I wish that we could conclude that there will be no more martyrs in God's cause because the period of martyrdom is past, but I'm afraid this is not the case.

In the case of the trumpets, you’ll note that the 3rd comes before the 2nd! That’s right! The Huns, lead by Attila disappeared from history’s radar screen in 453 AD when Attila died. The Vandals “vandalized” Rome for two weeks in the year 455 AD. And yet we say that the Vandals are the 2nd trumpet and the Huns are the 3rd.

The 5th and 6th trumpet are so complex that the SDA Bible commentary spends considerable time on them and then concludes: “It should be made clear, however, that commentators and theologians in general have been greatly divided over the meaning of the 5th and 6th trumpets.” (Vol.7, p.796) On the one hand we want to use the description of the locust to describe the spread of the Moslem religion starting in about 629 AD.

On the other hand, we want to use the 5 months (150 prophetic days = 150 literal years) to describe the 150 year struggle between the Ottoman Turks and the Greek Empire represented by Constantinople, which took place between 1299 and 1449. It clearly can not apply to both.

We have generally adhered to the interpretation of the 6th trumpet as originally exposited by Josiah Litch, who declared that the "hour, day, month, and year" were to be understood as 391 years, 15 days. These, he believed, started with the Battle of Bapheum on July 27, 1299, and would extend to August 11, 1840, upon which date he expected the Ottoman Empire to be overthrown.

On that very day, an emissary arrived in Alexandria with the terms of the London Convention, in which Britain, Austria, Prussia and Russia agreed to enforce an agreement between the Ottoman Turks and the upstart country of Egypt. Josiah Litch declared the prophecy to be fulfilled, and many were said to be converted. (This understanding of the 6th trumpet is recorded in The Great Controversy.)
Several years later, however, Josiah Litch retracted his statements, declaring that he was in error, and stating that we must look to some future fulfillment of this prophecy. Clearly, the Ottoman Empire was not overthrown - in fact, it continued until WW1.

There are other problems with this prophecy as well. In calculating his ending date of August 11, Josiah Litch failed to take into account the 10 day shift that took place when the Gregorian calendar was instituted in 1752. His target date should have been August 21. More telling however is the "hour, day, month, and year" spoken of in Revelation 9:15. The Bible does not speak of this as a period of time. Instead, it is pinpointed as an exact moment in time. These angels were prepared for the very moment of their release.

Given all these problems - problems with the meaning of the time period, problems with the calculation of the event, problems with the failure of the Turkish empire to expire as predicted - we should not be surprised to find that it's true meaning and fulfillment are other than what we have traditionally taught."

So we see that, far for a sound basis of interpretation, we discover restatements, adjustments, omittings. etc. Still, we try to put this dis-jointed puzzle together. Hardly what I would call inspired interpretations of the Scriptures. This is why I stand by what was posted in our Trumpet posts. GL&L

Some foundation basics of the seals.

The consecutive breaking of the seven seals and their individual contents, respectively reveal that the history of mankind is divided into seven different periods.

Now Truth reveals that with the breaking of the first seal -- with the opening of the first section of the book -- the Judgment begins. It is also self evident that at the Judgment throne of God, in Its three sessions, the Apocalyptic symbolism depicts the nations and peoples, saints and sinners, churches and prelates, Satan and his angels, -- the past, the present, and the future. Thus "all the books of the Bible
meet and end in the Revelation." -- The Acts Of The Apostles, p. 585.

The Scriptures, as every Bible student knows are designed to be present truth at certain times -- "meat in due season," especially adapted to meet the people's needs. "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Cor. 10:11. In other words, the Scriptures are similar to long term bonds, or notes, which become due at a given time. Obviously, then, the time appointed by Inspiration is the time in which one must cash in on them, so to speak.

This is especially true with The Revelation and since we have come to the very time for which It was written, we can now by experience whole-heartedly and without reservation reiterate: "Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

In view of the fact that the seals contain the history of the world, the different colors of the four horses -- white, red, black, and pale -- definitely portray four different conditions, one following the other.

Then, too, the first rider's crown, and the second rider's sword, also the balances of the third, and the name of death on the fourth, -- all four in as simple a manner as Divine symbolism can depict, unveil that by the deeds of man the world has gone from good to bad, then from bad to worse and that man needs to be helped out of his brutality, needs to be re-educated to his Creator's will. The revelation of God's will, though, becomes clear only to the extent of one's willingness to relinquish his theories and self-will.

Moses, found it a thousand times easier to lead the people out of Egypt, than to lead Egypt out of them. Profiting by their stumbling blocks, dismissing every theory and all self-will at once, not taking forty years or even forty days, the Caleb's and the Joshua's of today without the semblance of doubt see that by the horses is depicted something which is created by God, but ruled (driven) by man. And what else can it be but the earth, which was man's given right to rule?

Manifestly, then, whatever else the symbolism (horses and horsemen), may depict, it for certainty reveals that man's divergence from right has lowered his character, has caused him to lose his God-given crown and with it his white horse his righteous and peaceful government; that is, what was once pure, "white," without blemish, man has caused to become impure, tyrannical and quarrelsome, domineering and murderous.

As sin multiplied, curse after curse was added, and consequently the white horse was succeeded by the red, the red by the black, and the black by the pale.

Next post we'll look at each seal.

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE FIRST SEAL.

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." Rev. 6:1, 2.

Naturally, the first seal, the seal with which the Judgment opens, must contain the things at the very inception of the human race. Logically, then, the white horse, the first in the symbolism identifies the world's first state of being -- pure and sinless with a Divinely-crowned ruler (rider), who at first had no goal but to subdue the earth and to fill it with eternal God-like beings. The earth itself was wrapped in a garb of beauty and purity, with all the wonders on land and in sea. Nothing was wanting.

In the Garden of Eden "were trees of every variety, many of them laden with fragrant and delicious fruit. There were lovely vines... presenting a most graceful appearance, with their branches drooping under their load of tempting fruit, of the richest and most varied hues." -- Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 47.

The earth in her youth, filled with delicate flowers and covered with a carpet of living green, spanned by the blue heavens, exhibited natural beauty and elegance such as no language can describe. A living wonder without a flaw, which only the great Master Artist could bring forth.

The rider and his white horse (God's crowned king, Adam, and his peaceful government, his white horse) are, therefore, the first to be weighed on the balances, the first to come in review before the Judicial Throne. Hence, we are again reminded that this character-searching event, the Judgment, is the very thing that was to take place "hereafter" from John's time, years after the first century of the Christian era.

The rider's crown and his bow call to mind the office which man first filled the instant God said, "Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gen. 1:26. And God blessed Adam and Eve, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it," conquer it. Gen. 1:28.

Plain it is that at the Throne of Judgment, the white horse, the rider, and his crown, figuratively identify Adam, God's created king, and his kingdom. And if the only thing which he was commanded to conquer was the earth, by replenishing and subduing it, then what else in the field of symbolism can the "bow," the instrument to conquer with logically represent but Eve?

Some posts back, someone identified you as of the Shepherd's Rod movement. I see why now. You are actually palming off their Tract #15 as if these were your original thoughts. Here is the link to the tract:

http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_15.html

All you had to do was link to it, say you believe it to be true and discuss it with whoever wishes to engage you. It's called intellectual honesty and integrity.

///

"You are actually palming off their Tract #15 as if these were your original thoughts. Here is the link to the tract:"

http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_15.html



James Peterson, brother James is spot on with his accessment of you. You try to come on here and dissuade us as SDA that we are wrong in believing as we do. As I had already pointed that the correct course is not to waste our time with you or your points.

You character assassination is fruitless because you have no clue about the history of our church. The Srod has been a very debated and contentious subject in our SDA faith (Which obviously you don't know about) , and as such the teaching have been often prejudiced against. To avoid such pre-prejudice I have posted some of the teachings straight from the SRod.

Furthermore, only someone who thinks half way would reach the conclusion that I am trying to promote myself in these teaching, especially when I had already said I believe in them and find them deep and true. You think I'd be so foolish to post them and not know that anyone could search out the lessons I've posted to find it is from the SRod? You are really quite naive.

I could say alot more but suffice to say, the only reason I posted this is to point out your faulty assumptions. The Srod teachings are, at least at this point I believe WAY beyond your scope. Of course as bro. James pointed out your whole point coming on here is to disrupt and accuse, I agree.

Lastly I suggest you read the Wikipedia article on Davidian Seventh Day-Adventist to improve your learning base.

L&L, could you point out where you indicated you were posting the Shepherd's Rod's teaching as indicating you were pointing out faulty assumptions?
Reading it again, maybe that's not what you were actually trying to say. But where did you indicate you were posting the Shepherd's Rod's teaching?

Because, if you cannot, it appears that James Peterson was spot on! Your diffusion of the accusation would be lame, and you would have lost any remaining credibility with me.

In continuing of explanations of the seals, the second seal..

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE SECOND SEAL.
"And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." Rev. 6:3, 4.

Since the white horse and its crowned rider represent the first period of mankind, then the red horse and its murderous peace-destroying rider, must represent the next period, the period in which murder and war for the first time broke out.

Abel, of course, was the first victim. And as result, the whole Noatic world was destroyed by the flood, and "a third dreadful curse rested upon it in consequence of sin. "-- Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 107.

Notwithstanding this punishment and its object lesson, as soon as the earth's inhabitants multiplied after the deluge, sin likewise multiplied. And though the people could but give credit to Noah's correct prediction of the flood, they mistrusted him in his next prediction: the prediction that there would be no more "flood to destroy the earth." Gen. 9:11. Even the rainbow in the clouds, the Lord's own token of His covenant not to flood the earth a second time, failed to convince them.

What a mystery sin indeed is! First they did not believe in even the possibility of a flood, and next they did not believe in the impossibility of one! Actually, the judgment of the unbelieving is as foolish as the judgment of the country woman who, when she first saw a train idling on the rails, emphatically declared, "It will never start out!"

Then after she saw it start off, she again declared, just as emphatically as before, "It will never stop!" So while the spirit of unbelief in the Word has always benumbed the mind and subjected the body to sin and decay, even in the days when men were strong and long-lived, the same spirit is having an even greater hold on humanity today.

Rather than to set them free from fear, the Word of God spoken through Noah impelled the post-diluvians to feel that there was an unavoidable necessity to build the tower of Babel as a defense against a second flood. Disapproving of their unbelief and false alarm, however, the Lord demonstrated His displeasure by interfering with their wicked and foolish project: He destroyed their tower and confounded their language. Thus it was that the confusion at Babel (Gen. 11:8, 9) gave birth to the existing races and languages.

Finally, as the confused builders parted in groups, the neighboring ones began to quarrel one with another. And as they at length grew into nations, their quarrels grew into wars. Hence, the historical truth that wars for the first time broke out after the confusion of tongues, shows that the red horse and, in particular, its rider, depict the period in which the tower of Babel was annihilated, and in which peace gave way to wars.

Moreover, another anchor to the proof, is the phrase, "To take peace from the earth," for it obviously implies that there was peace before that time.

The consequences of Adam's sin, though, did not stop with such a life-and-property destroying act as is war. It led his descendants to greater degradation, even to idol worship, to destroying souls by means of religion...."

Source:"To the seven Churches" p.41, V.T Houteff
(I will address comments concerning actual points of this study, not side-track issues)

The prophet for Shepherd Rod teachings is Victor Houteff. Ellen White is regarded only as far as she can be used to support Houteff.


One can't in honesty claim both are true prophets.
True prophets don't contradict each other.

Houteff's endtime picture is very different from Ellen White's endtime picture.
Houteff has the faithful building a peaceful kingdom in Palestine before probation closes for the world, to which the faithful from all nations are gathered and live in sort of a utopia under a David type king, until Christ comes.

EGW has the faithful hiding in dens and caves or being in prison with a death threat ordered against them. Probation being closed for the whole world. God delivers them but probation is closed for the world, and the short space of time between that deliverance and the second coming during which the nations realize they were mislead does not yield any new conversions.

The first seal --

The seals represent the Christian era.

The fact that Christ "prevailed to open the book" means that he is the great conqueror in the controversy and Lord of history.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he (Christ) made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

A mighty triumph as Christ rose from the grave -- Christ is the great conqueror over evil.

Rev. 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


We see that same white horse once again in Rev. 19

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:16 And he has on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Christ sent out His apostles with the message that He had conquered the forces of evil, the door of heaven was open to all who come in Christ's name.



The spiritual conquest went forth with power. So swiftly was the gospel carried that when writing to the Colossians (some say it was in 63 AD) Paul declared that the good news had been "preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23)