That is not correct either and I doubt that is what Doug said.

The problem with Shepherd Rod interpretation is that they combine the SIFTING and SHAKING time with Ezekiel 9.

That is where the SR are wrong.

Seventh-day Adventists do believe in the sifting/shaking time. When the scorn of the world is turned against Sabbath Keeping faith led Adventists, those who have compromised with the world will simply continue to compromise with the world and refute their connection with those who uphold the Seventh-day Adventist beliefs, standards and faith.

These compromisers won't be killed they will RENOUNCE their former faith.

The church will be sifted when the laws of the land turn against our standards and beliefs.

I highly doubt that many of our institutions will survive as "Seventh-day Adventist" during this time.

But that is very different from the SR interpretations, who take statements from EGW concerning the shaking, and attach them to Ezekiel nine.
EGW makes it plain that Ezekiel nine takes place AT THE END when God delivers His people.

The shaking occurs when the vast number of Adventists and Adventist institutions refute their belief and join with the increasingly powerful ecumenical side.

This will be the great testing.
The faithful will give the loud cry under very oppressive conditions, but the whole world will hear it.


But wasn't this the topic of the Ezekiel nine thread?
Aren't we off topic?

Response to "Dedication" and her statements in quotes.

"That is not correct either and I doubt that is what Doug said."

It's all there in his video of the 144,000, watch it.

"But that is very different from the SR interpretations, who take statements from EGW concerning the shaking, and attach them to Ezekiel nine.EGW makes it plain that Ezekiel nine takes place AT THE END when God delivers His people."

This is not what the SR teach.The shaking is happening now, there is a struggle, as we all know between those who accept His Rod and those who don't and many are being shaked by it. The SR teach that Ezekiel 9 is the "result" of the shaking.

You stated that EGW places it at the "END", when exactly is your placement here? In the last plague?

And if you believe that Ezek.9 happens within the 7th plague then do you also believe that the "sealing" of the 144,000 takes place at that time?

"But wasn't this the topic of the Ezekiel nine thread?
Aren't we off topic?"

The reason this issue was addressed was because it was the last quote on the sixth seal and some had commented about it. If you want to take this seal study and move it to another thread (new) that's ok with me. I do agree that this thread has "morphed" into a different subject than was originally stated.

His video is at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ea68hUyjc0

He isn't saying all the sinful stuff will be in the church etc. etc. when the 144,000, filled with the Holy Spirit witness for the Lord.






There are several times you mentioned that God would cleanse his church, then quoted from EGW where she speaks of the shaking, and then you linked it to Ezekiel 9.
You have repeatedly linked the "cleansing of the church" with the last verses of Ezekiel 9.

However the church IS NOT CLEANSED by Ezekiel 9. It is cleansed by persecution which causes the lukewarm to RENOUNCE their faith and join the opposition.

Then we will see who serves the Lord and who does not.
We will SEE the difference between those who renounce the faith and join with the ecumenical wold religion and those who cling to their faith in spite of opposition.



Read Great Controversy pages 655-656
It's when God's Voice delivers His faithful from the death decree, just before Jesus comes again.


Of course not.
The sealing of the 144,000 must take place prior to the close of probation. Once probation closes there are no more conversions. I shared all that in the Ezekiel 9 thread.

Every church member will be tested when the laws of the land oppose their worship of the Creator God. Then it will be seen if they have been committing themselves to God all along, or if they have been merely professing to serve him. It is this test that seals their destiny.

It is also those who stand firm that proclaim the "Loud Cry".


The four winds held by the angels are not the Sunday laws -- the winds are not released till probation is closed for the world and Satan, given free reign, plunges the whole world in destruction, and the seven last plagues fall after probation is closed.

EGW writes: " I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. {CET 100 and Early Writings page 36}

First, I will answer any questions you ask of me and would like you to do the same,would that be ok with you?

"He isn't saying all the sinful stuff will be in the church etc. etc. when the 144,000, filled with the Holy Spirit witness for the Lord."

You mis-understood the comment. The comment --"The SDA believe that the 144,000 are "special servants" of God(see Doug Batchelor studies)" This is the extent of what Doug says that I brought up, I did not intend to say the rest of the comment was or was not Doug's view. Otherwise I would have added the (see Doug Batchelor studies) at the END of my comment.

However the church IS NOT CLEANSED by Ezekiel 9. It is cleansed by persecution which causes the lukewarm to RENOUNCE their faith and join the opposition.

There several problems with this view. We know that Ezekiel 9 destruction happens in the "midst of Jerusalem" and "Israel".

Can you show quotes where EGW or Scripture call the world, or Babylon -- Israel?

I asked --And if you believe that Ezek.9 happens within the 7th plague then do you also believe that the "sealing" of the 144,000 takes place at that time?

"Of course not.
The sealing of the 144,000 must take place prior to the close of probation. Once probation closes there are no more conversions. I shared all that in the Ezekiel 9 thread."

If the sealing of the 144,000 occurs "before" probation, then how do you explain EGW -Testimonies to Ministers, p.445, where she says Ezekiel 9 and Rev. 7 sealings are the same event?


"Read Great Controversy pages 655-656
It's when God's Voice delivers His faithful from the death decree, just before Jesus comes again."

This ,as we've shown on that thread can only be a secondary application. Sister White did not have all the light on this understanding. That was for the "Elijah". Because there are just too many holes and gaps from Scripture and EGW to be solely in the 7th plague.In other words, it's primary application.

If we believe as you do that Ezekiel comes in the 7th plague "delivers His faithful", then in no way shape or form can this be even REMOTELY the -- "first stroke of God's wrath"(Test. for the Church, vol. 5, p.211). The Sun's burning, the great pain of their sores, etc. all are CLEARLY God's wrath. Further more Scripture confirms this, "..Seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the WRATH OF GOD is complete>" (Rev. 15:1)

I know that some have agenda's to stick with and must throw out the word "first". It twists into "not first".

It's the same devil trick from the beginning "Surely you shall not die." When His word plainly says "Surely you shall die." (Gen.3:3-4)

"It is also those who stand firm that proclaim the "Loud Cry"."

Specifically, we know that ONLY THOSE" who withstand temptation BEFORE the Loud Cry can take part in it. (Review and Herald, Nov. 19. 1908)

Do you see how NOW the work of overcoming is what the SDA must do, in order to be allowed to take part in the Loud Cry?

Further, Inspiration flatly says this -- "Not ONE of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have ONE spot or stain upon them It is left WITH US to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of EVERY DEFILEMENT." (Test. for the Church, vol. 5, p.214)

"The four winds held by the angels are not the Sunday laws--"

What do you do with Test. for the Church, vol, 5, p.152?

"The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels. We are not just ready. There is a work yet to be done, and then the
angels will be bidden to let go, that the four winds may blow upon the earth. That will be a decisive
time for God's children, a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. Now is our
opportunity to work."

Who among us would say that the "mark of the beast" is NOT the Sunday law?

"EGW writes: " I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. {CET 100 and Early Writings page 36}"

Yes, we have a seeming quandary here, two apparent contradictions .

However, she also says this, "They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, 'until,' said the angel, 'the Lord Jesus shall rise up from his mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary, and shall clothe himself with the garments of vengeance, and surprise them at their unholy feast; and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.'"--Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 690.

These are automatically harmonized when it is understood that Christ leaves the sanctuary more than the one time: Once after "the closing work for the church" (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 266), and again after the closing work for the world.

Additionally, we have to deduct that the "four winds" have more than one application.

Great Controversy page 37 "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law."

"In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law."--GC 36



We need to read the whole context. I don't want to post the whole section so will only choose the main thoughts pertinent to this discussion.

Testimony to Ministers pages 444-446
" If such scenes as this are to come, such tremendous judgments on a guilty world, where will be the refuge for God's people? ...These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of God's church.... Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God.....(Those who) are allured by sin, setting up idols in their hearts, corrupting their souls before God, and polluting those who unite with them in sin, will have their names blotted out of the book of life, and be left in midnight darkness, having no oil in their vessels with their lamps....
This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision.

EGW is referring to the sealing.
She is NOT saying the sealing and the destruction are one and the same thing.
Both Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7 are speaking of the sealing to take place prior to the final turmoil, which the destruction of Jerusalem IN THE PAST was a foreshadow of the destruction to befall the whole world.

Take note -- she is talking about "judgments coming upon a guilty world."

She is talking about the importance of obtaining the seal of God prior to these "judgements coming upon a guilty world."









I really don't see any "holes or gaps" at all.
The Sunday laws are the TEST that will bring first the Sabbath keepers to decision (are they serious about their commitment to God or not) and a great majority will renounce their faith. Thus they themselves seal their destiny. Those faithful will testify for the Lord and the whole world will be brought to decision.

However, I don't see millions upon millions accepting the message. Revelation paints a very different picture. "The whole world worships the beast and his image" Rev. 13. The faithful will be in hiding with a death decree on their heads.

God delivers them with a mighty earth quake, and declaration from heaven, and this is during the seventh plague.









Again we must read the whole chapter, not just pick out one phrase and build our understanding on that.

By rearranging the words it gives them a different meaning.

EGW wrote: "was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God" 5T 211
You wrote: "first stroke of God's wrath"

EGW's statement doesn't say it was the first stroke.
But in this particular punishment the false leaders were the first to feel this wrath.

And in Great controversy page 656
she gives the same explanation.
When the people realize they have followed deceptions and have been fighting against God, their violent reaction is to attack the false religious teachers.
These leaders, especially the ones who should have known better, and did know better, are the first to "feel the wrath".











The mark of the beast is not the Sunday law. The enactment of the Sunday laws CAUSE people to receive the mark of the beast.

The "seal of God" involves our allegiance to the Creator God and His law.
The "mark of the beast" involves allegiance to the papacy and his supposed power over God's law.

People don't receive the "mark of the beast" because of Sunday laws, they only receive the "mark of the beast" if they submit to those laws and give their allegiance to the beast.

Thus during this awful testing time --
people will receive either the seal of God
or
The mark of the beast
depending upon their choice.

The winds are NOT let loose TWICE.
They are let lose gradually, developing in fury.

Christ does NOT leave the sanctuary several times.
He leaves the sanctuary ONCE when probation for the world closes. Just because people's choices settle them into one or the other of the two opposing camps prior, does not mean Christ has to leave the sanctuary each time. He leaves the sanctuary when EVERYONE who will be sealed for the eternal kingdom IS sealed.

Your quote --"Great Controversy page 37 "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law."

"In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law."--GC 36"

Talking about “visitations of judgments” upon Jerusalem, in no way shape or form is calling the world-Jerusalem or Israel. The statement connects Jerusalem's judgments as a type of what is to come to the world.

Compare the vague statments above to this –-
“ ….Seventh-day Adventists must have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and in their homes. The Lord has given me light that when the Israel of today humble themselves before Him, and cleanse the soul-temple from all defilement, He will hear their prayers in behalf of the sick and will bless in the use of His remedies for disease. “(Testimonies, vol. 9, p.164)

Your words as -- We need to read the whole context. I don't want to post the whole section so will only choose the main thoughts pertinent to this discussion.

Testimony to Ministers pages 444-446
" If such scenes as this are to come, such tremendous judgments on a guilty world, where will be the refuge for God's people? ...These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of God's church.... Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God.....(Those who) are allured by sin, setting up idols in their hearts, corrupting their souls before God, and polluting those who unite with them in sin, will have their names blotted out of the book of life, and be left in midnight darkness, having no oil in their vessels with their lamps....
This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision.

EGW is referring to the sealing.
She is NOT saying the sealing and the destruction are one and the same thing.

Let's read that quote again, “This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision. John also had been a witness of this most startling revelation.”

Let's look at the prior words so as to bring it in “context”. In p. 444, she says, “John see the elements of nature – earthquakes, tempest, and political strife-represented as being held by the four angels. These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go...that the winds should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor any tree, until the servants of God should be sealed in their foreheads.”

Then she says a couple paragraphs further, “This sealing”. What sealing? The sealing of the 144,000.
“..is the same as Ezekiel saw in vision.” What vision? Only Ezekiel 9 has the “marking/sealing” vision of God's people in the whole book of Ezekiel. Notice they see the same vision which takes place and effects the same outcome. Sealing and destruction together. John was “startled” by it, just as Ezekiel was “Ah Lord! Will You destroy all the remnant of Israel in pouring out Your fury on Jerusalem?”.

Further, the marking or sealing in connection with Ezekiel is also illuminated in Testimonies, vol. 5, p505--
“When God was about to smite the first-born of Egypt, He commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood, that he destroying angel might see it and pass over their homes. It was the work of parents to gather in their children. This is your work, this is my work, and the work of every mother who believes the truth.

The angel is to place a mark upon the forehead of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel will follow, to slay utterly both old and young.” (Please note this is under the heading “The education of our children” where she talks about “our own people”.

Bottomline-- to separate the sealing of the 144,000 from Ezekiel 9 is to render her quote (p.445) meaningless.

She is talking about the importance of obtaining the seal of God prior to these "judgments coming upon a guilty world."

This is something I agree with “importance of obtaining the seal prior” to His judgments. Her writings of Rev. 7 and Ezekiel 9 almost always include the warnings that NOW is the time to “sigh and cry” for the abominations done in the midst.
One thing we can agree on is that those who “look the other way” at sin amongst His people/church will not receive the seal of Rev. 7.(see Testimonies, vol. 3 , p.266-268, vol. 5, p.210-212)

I really don't see any "holes or gaps" at all.
The Sunday laws are the TEST that will bring first the Sabbath keepers to decision (are they serious about their commitment to God or not) and a great majority will renounce their faith. Thus they themselves seal their destiny. Those faithful will testify for the Lord and the whole world will be brought to decision.

If it be true that the beast’s decree is to sift out the unconverted (the tares) that are in the church then one must conclude that the beast is not symbol of a power of dragon-like principle, but a heaven-sent agency, sent to cast out the tares which the dragon has brought in!

It is Satan’s predetermined purpose to pollute the church by multiplying instead of reducing the disloyal members. Is this burden of the purifying work, Satan’s or the Lord’s? Satan is doing nothing to purify the church, but is doing everything to pollute it.

 Therefore the beast’s decree and his rigid enforcement of it, are not for the purpose of purifying the church, but for the purpose of blockading the way out of Babylon, thereby holding the world captive. This he does specifically to halt the steady flow of multitudes of converts to the then already purged and purified church.

In spite, however of the Enemy’s heaviest efforts to keep them in Babylon, the faithful will come out.

They will take heed to the Lord’s counsel: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” Rev. 14:9, 10.

Again we must read the whole chapter, not just pick out one phrase and build our understanding on that.

By rearranging the words it gives them a different meaning.

EGW wrote: "was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God" 5T 211
You wrote: "first stroke of God's wrath"

When I read these words it was like, “3 + 4 = 7 is not the same as one digit which is 7”. Allow me to explain.

The beginning of the paragraph says “Here we see the church- the Lord's sanctuary was the first to feel the stroke of God's wrath. We cannot escape the clear understanding here. Yes, the “false religious leaders” are the ones that the smiting starts with but it is within His church. At the end of that paragraph it says “Men, maidens, and little children all perish together.” Where? Within His sanctuary.

So all those within His church are to be first to experience --His stroke of wrath. As mentioned this cannot be true when we falsely assume that the sores, the sun burning , etc. all happen before what she said because these are certainly strokes of God's wrath.

The mark of the beast is not the Sunday law. The enactment of the Sunday laws CAUSE people to receive the mark of the beast.

The Sunday law must occur and be set up before the mark of the beast can be given. We can't have the cart before the horse.

“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels.” (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152)

We as Adventists know very well that the restrictions/ prohibitions of buying and selling are in force when the “Sunday law” is in force. And reading her clear words we cannot escape the fact that she equates the “blowing of the four winds” to the decree of the law enforcement. Do you mean to say that this restriction and mark of the beast are the results of another law apart from or before the Sunday law?

We are clearly shown that it is the FOUR ANGELS of Rev. 7, she is referencing the connections here to.
Again we can see that in Rev. 7, the sealing is done before the angels release the four winds. She makes all these connections in that one verse.

The "seal of God" involves our allegiance to the Creator God and His law.

The sealing of God is more than that, we observe –

Being sealed in Christ “with that Holy Spirit of promise,” after having “heard the word of truth” (Eph. 1:13- 4:30), the saints are consequently sealed by Present Truth---the truth preached in their own day.

“The seal of the living God,” the Truth, by which the 144,000 are sealed (Rev. 7:2), is a special seal, being the same as “the mark” of Ezekiel 9. (See Testimonies to Ministers, p. 445; Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 267; Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211). It demands one’s sighing and crying over the abominations which defile him, and which desecrate both the Sabbath and the house of God, especially against selling literature and raising goals during Sabbath services.

As the saints have this seal or mark on their foreheads, the angels will pass over them, not slay them. It is equivalent to the blood on the door post on the night of the Passover in Egypt. The angel is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who by sighing over their own sins, and over the sins in the house of God, show fidelity to the Truth.

Then the destroying angels will follow, to slay utterly both old and young who have failed to receive the seal. (See Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 505)
So, the former seal enables the receiver to rise from the dead in the resurrection of the just, while the latter seal enables the sighing-crying one to escape death and forever to live for God.” (Answerer Q-21)

Christ does NOT leave the sanctuary several times.
He leaves the sanctuary ONCE when probation for the world closes.

Early Writings (p.36)says that Christ will not leave the sanctuary before His “work is done,” yet elsewhere she writes: “They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, ‘until,’ said the angel, ‘the Lord Jesus shall rise up from his mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary, and shall clothe himself with the garments of vengeance, and surprise them at their unholy feast; and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.”’-(Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 690.)

From the above context of surrounding pages, we can see clearly that she is addressing our Church not the world's. “Testimonies for the Church” volumes are largely messages to us as SDA and we should keep that in mind.

Viewing both statements, we see that Christ leaves the sanctuary at a certain time in the “unrolling of the scroll.” Coming to the church, He finds her not spotless and ready to meet Him, but deep in sin, yet self-complacently feeding upon the errors, faults, and mistakes of others.

These are automatically harmonized when it is understood that Christ leaves the sanctuary more than the one time: Once after “the closing work for the church” (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 266), and again after the closing work for the world. 

Exactly!

Ezekiel nine is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem which is an example or foreshadowing of the destruction to fall upon the whole world.

Ezekiel's first focus is on his own nation that was about to fall. We are told it this is a FORESHADOW of things to come.
A foreshadowing of the destruction to befall the whole world.
So we need to stay with what it says, not seek other interpretations.




But that isn't speaking of the same thing.
Yes, through Christ we have become Abrabam's seed and heirs according to the promise. (See Galatians 3:29)

But that doesn't change the fact that
the ancient destruction of Jerusalem is a foreshadowing of the destruction that will befall the whole world in last days.





I agreed -- the sealing in Ezekiel 9 and the sealing in Revelation 7 are speaking of the same thing.

But no where is it implied that the destruction happens before the winds of strife are let loose.





And who received the plague in Egypt?
Was it only the Israelites who refused to accept God's provision for their salvation? Or was it the whole country?

Again an apt foreshadowing --
We must now seek the preparation necessary to be under Christ's saving blood with our children and urge all others to do the same.
When the destruction comes it will be on the whole world -- all who failed to claim the blood of Christ's cleansing and salvation.




I'm not separating the sealing from Ezekiel 9, however, the sealing and the destruction that follows is not one and the same thing, even in Ezekiel 9. One is done and fully completed before the other takes place.



She is talking about the importance of obtaining the seal of God prior to these "judgments coming upon a guilty world."



Ah.... are you sure?
What about the inquisition and all the persecutions during the dark ages. In those days people counted the cost before they accepted a Bible based belief that differed from the proscribed "beastly" program.

"Prosperity multiplies a mass of professors. Adversity purges them out of the church.--4T 89 (1876).
"In the absence of the persecution there have drifted into our ranks men who appear sound and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us.--Ev 360 (1890).
When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.--2SM 368 (1891).
As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks. Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation. Those who have had great light and precious privileges but have not improved them will, under one pretext or another, go out from us.--6T 400 (1900).



Satan's purpose is to get the whole world to worship him (see Rev. 13 and Is. 14)
The reason he is now polluting the church is so that it will fall in line with his agenda. By eroding the foundation of people's faith and conviction, he will be assured that the vast majority will join his movement of a one world religion over which he will sit as "god'.

 

Actually the world will be in distress, economically and environmentally, and people will think they can turn the tide by "returning to God" but their whole concept of truth has been so adulterated by spiritualistic concepts that they will actually be worshipping the dragon.
They will think that getting the whole world to "consecrate themselves" to the spiritualistic religion (with papacy at the head) they will leap into the next evolutionary level of super humans.
But those who hold to fundamental doctrines from scripture will be seen as the enemies of this advance. As long as the world is not in unity in its devotion to this spiritualistic religion, the "new age" won't happen, so the death decree goes out.


"As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood. Satan resolves to charge this upon those who refuse to bow to the idol which he has set up. His agents point to Seventh-day Adventists as the cause of the trouble. "These people stand out in defiance of law," they say. "They desecrate Sunday. Were they compelled to obey the law for Sunday observance, there would be a cessation of these terrible judgments." {Mar 176.2}

As Spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of Spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power. {GC88 588.2}
The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church-members love what the world loves, and are ready to join with them; and Satan determines to unite them in one body, and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of Spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness
without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world, and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC88 588.3}

Will respond shortly, haven't forgot :-)

I said -- Talking about “visitations of judgments” upon Jerusalem, in no way shape or form is calling the world-Jerusalem or Israel. The statement connects Jerusalem's judgments as a type of what is to come to the world.


You said -- "Exactly!

Ezekiel nine is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem which is an example or foreshadowing of the destruction to fall upon the whole world.

Ezekiel's first focus is on his own nation that was about to fall. We are told it this is a FORESHADOW of things to come.
A foreshadowing of the destruction to befall the whole world.
So we need to stay with what it says, not seek other interpretations."

Yes we do need to stay focused and “stay with what it says”. Your answer here has multiple issues.

1) Your first comment ”speaking of destruction” does not address nor answer my original question -- Can you show quotes where EGW or Scripture calls the world,-- Babylon or Israel?(also Jerusalem or Judah?)

It's clear that the fact of the matter is that there is no Scripture or SOP writings that ever calls the world or Babylon –-- Israel, Jerusalem or Judah. These terms have always either indicated the literal application, or as we SDA know-- the remnant church.

We need to get back to the basics of understanding a VERY IMPORTANT principal of God's word. We must always study SOP writings and square it with the Bible, not the other way around. When we try and put her writings in light that seems to counter God's direct word we can really get in trouble and mixed up.

Regarding this matter she says, “The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience...The Spirit was not given – nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.” (Preface, page vii – Great Controversy)

With the above guidelines firmly in mind, let us go back to that quote which we are addressing. In Ezekiel 9, we notice the following facts.

1) The Lord draws near to His “temple”. His church.(Ezek. 9:3)

2) He directs His angels to “go through the midst of the city, through the midst of JERUSALEM and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done in the MIDST.” (Ezek. 9:4)

3) The destruction is in His church “Defile the TEMPLE, and fill the COURTS with the slain, Go out! And they went out and killed in the CITY.”(Ezek.9:7)

4) More confirmation is given as to who and where this destruction is given. “Ah Lord God! Will you destroy all the remnant of ISRAEL in pouring our Your fury on JERUSALEM.” (Ezek. 9:8)

5) The Lord Himself identifies those who this future vision is directed to, “The iniquity of the house of ISRAEL and JUDAH is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, “The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!” (Ezek. 9:9)

After reading these very clear statements we cannot look at GC, p.656 and then say about Ezek.9 “Oh well, all those terms “Israel, Jerusalem, Judah” mean the world. If we do we are then violating Inspiration's clear guidelines to make SOP writings fit the Bible not the Bible fit SOP writings. It appears your ideas attempt to do this. So clearly when the Lord says “begin at my sanctuary”(church) there appears further work for these angels of destruction to do later and that SOP saw the end application of this work in GC p.656.

She DID NOT have all the light in this regard (Ezek.9). The last prophet Elijah was to describe all the understandings of “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” not EGW.(This is another subject altogether)

To summarize, we must take the Bible as it reads and if possible try and understand SOP writings as a “compliment” to it, NEVER as a replacement of what it clearly says.


“I agreed -- the sealing in Ezekiel 9 and the sealing in Revelation 7 are speaking of the same thing.

But no where is it implied that the destruction happens before the winds of strife are let loose.” 


After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (Rev. 7:1-4)

What we see is:
1)The winds of destruction are held back UNTIL the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead.
2) The winds obviously must be able to harm the 144,000, so the holding back is necessary until the sealing job is done.
3)As Ezek.9 and Rev.7 are the “same thing”, then the vision scene must be seen as one event.
4)What destruction do we see in Ezek. 9? We see the Lord slaying WITHIN His sanctuary.
5)And where can we find specifically where Inspiration (EGW) describes the four winds in connection with the mark of the beast (Sunday law)?

“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels.” (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152)

By the way, can I ask why you've never addressed the above quote? We cannot overlook such a plain statement.

So to summarize the sealing of the 144,000 can only take place BEFORE the Sunday law. The destruction of Ezekiel 9 (same event in vision) likewise must happen before the Sunday law . The church purification is to fit the church for the Loud Cry. A pure house of God where the “called out” ones can come into. Then only can His 'full Spirit” be poured out among His church.
“Clad in the armor of Christ’s righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners” (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer. “(Prophets and Kings, p.725)

I said -- Further, the marking or sealing in connection with Ezekiel is also illuminated in Testimonies, vol. 5, p.505--

“When God was about to smite the first-born of Egypt, He commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood, that he destroying angel might see it and pass over their homes. It was the work of parents to gather in their children. This is your work, this is my work, and the work of every mother who believes the truth. 

The angel is to place a mark upon the forehead of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel will follow, to slay utterly both old and young.” (Please note this is under the heading “The education of our children” where she talks about “our own people”.

"And who received the plague in Egypt?
Was it only the Israelites who refused to accept God's provision for their salvation? Or was it the whole country?"

The judgment of Ezek. 9 goes to both the Israel of today (SDA) and then the world (Babylon). It is --two stages, “first wrath”(5 Test. p.211) upon God's people --Israel, then later the final wrath upon the world.The delay in the two stages is the fact that the Loud Cry must be done to the world before the second application goes forth.

If it be true that the beast’s decree is to sift out the unconverted (the tares) that are in the church then one must conclude that the beast is not symbol of a power of dragon-like principle, but a heaven-sent agency, sent to cast out the tares which the dragon has brought in!


"Ah.... are you sure?
What about the inquisition and all the persecutions during the dark ages. In those days people counted the cost before they accepted a Bible based belief that differed from the proscribed "beastly" program."

Then you quote {Mar 176.2} and {GC88 588.2-3}
All these quotes are good (GC 588, etc.), and point to the time of the great spiritual war between Jesus and Satan, agreed. But the fact remain that those who do not “sigh and cry” for sins done in the church and their own lives won't see the “distress” times you mentioned. The SDA church purification as shown already must produce the “servants of God” in order for the great mighty work to be done at last. Not the mark of the beast decree, because as we've shown Ezekiel 9 happens before it.

In describing Ezekiel 9 then the 144,000 post Ezek.9, we read in Joel.

.A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them, but behind them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them. Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses they run. As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains, like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble, like a powerful army drawn up for battle.”(Joel 2:2-5)

In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Micah 4:1-3)

Instead of being weak and unable to stand strong in the final days as some think, we know the church will be-- “Clad in the armor of Christ's righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. "Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners" (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer.

Here we see that His church, instead of being weak and fragmented is to stand united as a body which the whole world will tremble before (Remember the many of Babylon are now part of His church). Their power imparted by God is of such magnitude that Satan and his Sunday people will not be able to stop them.Yes, the final war upon God's people will take place by the apostates known as Armageddon, but the Holy pure church will be delivered.

GL&L WROTE: I said -- Talking about “visitations of judgments” upon Jerusalem, in no way shape or form is calling the world-Jerusalem or Israel. The statement connects Jerusalem's judgments as a type of what is to come to the world.


DEDICATION WROTE: "Exactly -- what befell Jerusalem is an example of what will befall the whole world!

Ezekiel nine is speaking first of the destruction of literal Jerusalem in the days of Ezekiel and we are told that destruction of Jerusalem is an example or foreshadowing of the destruction to fall upon the whole world.

Ezekiel's first focus is on his own nation that was about to fall. We are told it this is a FORESHADOW of things to come.
A foreshadowing of the destruction to befall the whole world.
So we need to stay with what it says, not seek other interpretations."

GL&L WROTE: Yes we do need to stay focused and “stay with what it says”. Your answer here has multiple issues.

1) Your first comment ”speaking of destruction” does not address nor answer my original question -- Can you show quotes where EGW or Scripture calls the world,-- Babylon or Israel?(also Jerusalem or Judah?)

DIDICATION WRITES: I don't need to answer that question, for we are not speaking of identifying symbols here.
A literal event in history is an example of what will happen to the whole world.

There is no need to make symbols of things that aren't symbols.
EGW in her statement is not speaking of that destruction as a symbol, but as an example.
Why make symbols of things that aren't used in a symbolic manner?

Just like in Matt. 24


GL&L We need to get back to the basics of understanding a VERY IMPORTANT principal of God's word. We must always study SOP writings and square it with the Bible, not the other way around.

Dedication writes: Yet, the conclusions you have reached are not primarily from the Bible, but by using EGW (and Houteff) are they not?
A simple reading of Ezekiel shows a prophet speaking to his people (in Judea) who at that time were facing imminent destruction by the Babylonian armies.

GL&L writes: With the above guidelines firmly in mind, let us go back to that quote which we are addressing. In Ezekiel 9, we notice the following facts.

1) The Lord draws near to His “temple”. His church.(Ezek. 9:3)

2) He directs His angels to “go through the midst of the city, through the midst of JERUSALEM and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done in the MIDST.” (Ezek. 9:4)

3) The destruction is in His church “Defile the TEMPLE, and fill the COURTS with the slain, Go out! And they went out and killed in the CITY.”(Ezek.9:7)

4) More confirmation is given as to who and where this destruction is given. “Ah Lord God! Will you destroy all the remnant of ISRAEL in pouring our Your fury on JERUSALEM.” (Ezek. 9:8)

5) The Lord Himself identifies those who this future vision is directed to, “The iniquity of the house of ISRAEL and JUDAH is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, “The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!” (Ezek. 9:9)

After reading these very clear statements we cannot look at GC, p.656 and then say about Ezek.9 “Oh well, all those terms “Israel, Jerusalem, Judah” mean the world.

DEDICATION WRITES: What you are forgetting is that Ezekiel is speaking about the literal temple that Solomon built, and the literal city of Jerusalem, and the literal people living there back in his day. The armies of Babylon were about to come level the city, many thousands would be killed, and the rest taken captive. Of course he is clearly speaking of Jerusalem and Judea, because that is where he was directing his message to.

Now you accept EGW's statement that there would be another more terrible fulfilment.
And she tells us WHEN that fulfilment will be.

Many of the OT prophecies that were primarily directed to the prophets contemporary Israelites also have applications to last day events. However, their applications do not follow a step by step literal replay of the original fulfilment.

As I take EGW's statement that Ezekiel will have a literal future fulfilment, I also take her explanation of when that fulfilment will be. (GC 656)

The parallels are all there.
Just like the Jewish leaders were the first to fall and receive the wrath of the Babylonian armies in the temple compounds,
So in the final fulfillment the religious leaders will be the first to receive the terrible anger of the people they have deceived.
And the destruction of Jerusalem is an example of the destruction of the whole world in the end.



GL&L wrote She (EGW DID NOT have all the light in this regard (Ezek.9). The last prophet Elijah was to describe all the understandings of “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” not EGW.(This is another subject altogether)

We can always find more truth in scripture. But the man who I think you are referring to as Elijah (V.Houteff) destroys a lot of the truth that was revealed to Ellen White.
Thus I do not consider him a prophet.