Apparently my source was using a different measurement of wealth, or it could be wrong or outdated. The point I was drawing attention to is the character of the groups I mentioned - the Scot Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed and Swiss. All three are world renown for integrety and industry with few others that are their peers.

I completely agree that all are called and with much of what you all are posting. All are called, all are drawn, only those who resist will be lost, etc. I agree. But I'm not prepared to discount equally important information from Christ. If He says not everyone is chosen I have to accept that. In the passage from John 6 these concepts also proved a stumbling block to many Jews and many turned away from Him.

Christ says few are chosen. Like I've said above, I don't think we can completely reconcile this with some scripture but please don't throw it out. We need the whole truth.

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20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
20:14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

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In John 6:39 we have an inkling of what Christ means when He says few are chosen. Throughout the sixth chapter Jesus repeats and expands on the idea that it is the Father who gives the saved to Christ. This does establish predestination in the sense that God’s choice pre-empts man’s. But that should be balanced with the Scripture that assigns the responsibility to us if we resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit rather than to predestination.

So it is consistent for God to also take primary responsibility for the lost. Romans chapter 9 says He suffers long with the wicked but that He Himself created them as vessels of wrath. The wicked are precluded from placing blame on God because He is their creator and He has ‘born long’ with them. They resisted.

But the election regarding the saved seems to be that God chooses us when we are estranged and it is that choice that is determinative. This choice friends is the one crucial aspect or ingredient of the drawing force He exerts.

To me, it makes me feel loved to know that God set his love on me when I was His enemy. The same drawing love was felt in Israel when God tenderly reminded them that it was not their talents or numbers that recommended them to Him. He chose them because He had compassion on them in their need.

God is love. His love is both passionate and principled. As with Israel, He chooses us above all the nations and peoples that surround us. I feel loved. Rather than feeling smug, I am humbled that again like Israel, God loves me not because of my talents, wealth or character but because of my need.

Mark:In John 6:39 we have an inkling of what Christ means when He says few are chosen. Throughout the sixth chapter Jesus repeats and expands on the idea that it is the Father who gives the saved to Christ. This does establish predestination in the sense that God’s choice pre-empts man’s.

Tom:How so? We have seen that God chooses all to be saved and only those who refuse will be lost. So it is clear that man's choice pre-empts God's. If God's choice pre-empted man's, than noone would be lost.

Mark: But that should be balanced with the Scripture that assigns the responsibility to us if we resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit rather than to predestination.

Tom:There's no need to "balance." All of Scripture teaches the same thing. God chooses all to be saved. Many of those whom God has chosen to be saved choose instead to be lost.

Mark:So it is consistent for God to also take primary responsibility for the lost. Romans chapter 9 says He suffers long with the wicked but that He Himself created them as vessels of wrath. The wicked are precluded from placing blame on God because He is their creator and He has ‘born long’ with them. They resisted.

Tom:I'm not following what you're saying here. It sounds like it could be interesting. Would you please elabaroate?

Mark:But the election regarding the saved seems to be that God chooses us when we are estranged and it is that choice that is determinative. This choice friends is the one crucial aspect or ingredient of the drawing force He exerts.

Tom:I'm not following this either. God chooses everyone when there are estranged. There is no other state possible in which we could be chosen. His choice cannot possibly be determinative because if it were we would all be saved.

Mark:To me, it makes me feel loved to know that God set his love on me when I was His enemy. The same drawing love was felt in Israel when God tenderly reminded them that it was not their talents or numbers that recommended them to Him. He chose them because He had compassion on them in their need.

God is love. His love is both passionate and principled. As with Israel, He chooses us above all the nations and peoples that surround us. I feel loved. Rather than feeling smug, I am humbled that again like Israel, God loves me not because of my talents, wealth or character but because of my need.

Tom:Of course you're loved, and it's good to recognize that, but you're not in a class different than any other human being, insofar as God's disposition towards you is concerned. God is not a respector of persons: He shows no favoratism.

The message of scripture is that we are a chosen people, chosen to the exclusion of others. The choosing began with Christ first – see verse 4 – and continued with Adam, the patriarchs, Israel, the Apostles, the early church and now with us as a chosen generation, wild branches which have been grafted into the main olive stock of spiritual Israel. Being chosen by God is a wonderful part of our heritage back to Adam, but starting with Christ.

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2:4To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

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One of the reasons we cannot accept the idea that all are chosen, in addition to the statements of Christ, is that the term ‘elect’, is given to the saints. In scripture ‘elect’ is a synonym for chosen, and it never refers to the unsaved.

For example, not only is Christ elected, and not only are the saints elected, but even the unfallen angels are elected.

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5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. I Tim.

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The very first part of the text below which says, ‘elect according to the foreknowledge of God’, if taken in isolation, would fully support the Arminian position – the position that most of you hold. But if you continue to read the text, it harmonizes with other texts such as John 6 and Romans 9 that indicate that the election is more than just foreknowledge. It is also the prime factor in salvation. It involves the sanctification of the Spirit and the sprinkling of the blood of Christ.

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1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. I Peter

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Mark, it appears to me you have been ignoring points made to counter positions you have suggested, instead choosing to bring up new points. I would like it if you would address any of the arguments I have made. I have made arguments both from Scripture alone (in regards to Romans 9) and using the Spirit of Prophesy (in regards to the John passages), but I don't believe you have responded to either.

I'm guessing you disagree with the arguments I have presented, since you continue with arguments similar to what you have been using all along. I have no idea why you disagree with my arguments. I would like to know.

Thank you.

Have another look Tom and see if I did not address your main point in my latest post(s).

Regarding your point that God is no respecter of persons, this is true. But when scripture says that God hated Esau but loved Jacob, we have to give that its place too. Scripture does not placed all the credit for the salvation or damnation of the individual with their personal choice.

John, in his last post, says the chosen are those who hear the word with gladness and bear fruit – 30, 60 and some 100 fold. True. But do they hear the word with gladness because of their own reasonableness or because of the gift of repentance? If we give ourselves credit for accepting the gospel invitation, repentance is no longer a gift. But scripture and Ellen White agree that repentance is a gift. This is a central point in the teaching of Christ in John 6 – ie., that no-one can come to Him unless the Father gives that person the gift of repentance. That truth and the truth of the election go together.