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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16343
10/18/05 11:51 PM
10/18/05 11:51 PM
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One of the quotes from the SOP that came to my mind recently is the one that says when we pray our prayer of dedication for the day we should say ' . . take my heart for I cannot give it . . ' or words to that effect. Doesn't that view of our condition indicate that it is not within our own power to choose God and His ways? It implies doesn't it that the choice is God's who enlightens us? Doesn't scripture agree? It is the Father who grants repentence to us through Christ. Christ's work is to give repentance to Isreal. I think it was Simion who said that as he held Christ in his arms. Elijah said something similar in his prayer on Mt. Carmel - that it was God who was to be credited with turning the hearts of Isreal back to Himself, not their own enlightened choice. Please have a look at those passages.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16344
10/19/05 01:00 AM
10/19/05 01:00 AM
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quote:
' . . take my heart for I cannot give it . . '
Yes Mark, you are right, it is not man that initiates repentance or any aspect of salvation. God is the one who has initiated it, and he has done that for and to every fallen being. But the response of man to God is vital to God and in salvation.
The above prayer reveals the meaningful response of one who has discovered his own helplessness and need of a savior; yet in his helplessness he is nevertheless able to do that which every man should: Give God the authority (call upon God) to save him. And such a man must not be double-minded in the matter. That is, he may not use the above thought as an excuse, but rather it is to be the realization of his desperate situation.
I have experienced this, and it was the key that made me realize what it means to have a Savior.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16345
10/19/05 10:36 AM
10/19/05 10:36 AM
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Thank God John! It is an experience we should all covet. I'm impressed how Abraham and Jacob would frequently call on God whether they were in trouble or not. We are fairly close in our views. Let me share two more passages: Regarding my comment on Simeon I’m sorry; it was not Simeon who spoke of Christ as granting repentance to Israel, it was Peter. See second quote below. Paul agrees in this quote from 2 Timothy. quote:
2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2:26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim
5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
5:33 When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them. Acts
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16346
10/19/05 04:54 PM
10/19/05 04:54 PM
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Mark, everyone is in agreement, I'm sure, with the idea that apart from God's initiative, none of could be saved. Where the difference would arise would be with the idea that there are any persons towards whom God does not take the iniative to save, or if God "tries harder" with some than with others.
If any are saved at last, it will be 100% because of God's grace. If any are lost at lost, it will be 100% in spite of God's grace.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16347
10/19/05 05:17 PM
10/19/05 05:17 PM
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quote:
For all that are saved, it will be 100% because of God's grace. If any are lost at last, it will be 100% in spite of God's grace.
Well said Tom; plus my edit. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16348
10/19/05 08:52 PM
10/19/05 08:52 PM
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Let me think about that some more. In the mean time, haven't I given scripture that says God selects who He will give repentance to and who He will harden. He 'hardens whom He will'.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16349
10/19/05 09:41 PM
10/19/05 09:41 PM
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Yes, Mark, and this has been treated at length, especially in the Romans 9 material.
God hardens those who refuse to believe, and gives repentance to all who will receive it. The import of these verses is not that God chooses some and doesn't choose others, but that noone who comes to God can claim it was because of something they did. Salvation is only by God's choosing (in the sense of intiative). The EGW quotes cited at the beginning of this thread bring this out quite well I think.
Thanks for your comment, John. I like the way it sounded when it rolled of my keyboard.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16350
10/19/05 09:44 PM
10/19/05 09:44 PM
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I should add that I appreciate you're having started this thread, Mark, as I received an insight from studying this I hadn't seen before (from the EGW quote I referred to earlier). It wasn't so clear to me that John was making the point that we can only come to God because of His initiative, but once I read it from the Spirit of Prophecy it struck me as "Boy, that's obvious! How did I miss that?" Anyway, I wouldn't have gotten that insight (at least not now) apart from this thread you started.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16351
10/20/05 12:45 AM
10/20/05 12:45 AM
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I'm glad you're taking something from this but I would be happier if you would allow the scripture to speak for itself. I looked through the thread again for Ellen White's explanation of Romans 9 that you refer to but could not find a statement that supports your paraphrase. Wouldn’t I be justified in saying that you folk show a reluctance to accept this passage as it reads? quote:
9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 [What] if God, willing to show [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
We agree all are called. The bolded part above indicates that God suffers long with all of us including those who are lost. Other scripture tells us that Christ enlightens every man who is born into this world, good and bad. The Holy Spirit is no respecter of persons and speaks to each heart. But, in matters of salvation, God decides our destiny. We are not masters of our own destiny. We have a part to play. We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we choose who we will serve, who we give our wills to, but, it is God who works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. And He does work in us. Faith without works is dead.
I do not claim to understand completely how the above passage harmonizes with other scripture, but the difference between us is that I do my best to let scripture have its plain meaning even though it may appear to contradict other scripture. You folk are loath to do that it seems. But I'd urge on everyone the necessity of allowing apparent contraditions in scripture to co-exist and not be too hasty in attempting to immediately harmonize and analyse things until all the data is in. And, even after we have done our best to bring all texts to bear on a given point, recognize that there will still be things beyond our grasp.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16352
10/20/05 01:09 AM
10/20/05 01:09 AM
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Mark, did you read the article I posted on Romans 9? I think it is very clear. Do you have any comments on it? The mistake you are making, IMO, is you are not considering the context of the passage. Taking a portion of Scripture out of context is not the same thing as taking the Scripture as it reads. The passage in Romans 9 is discussing how God can justly justify the Gentiles by faith. The summary of the argument is the following: quote:
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.
This summarizes the whole point Paul is making in the argument. How you are interpreting the section of Romans 9 you are quoting doesn't make sense given the point of Paul's argument; at least I can't see how. If you could explain how Paul's summation fits into your understanding -- that is, how the portion of Romans 9 you quoted serves to further Paul's argument -- that would be helpful.
Regarding the EGW quote, I think I wasn't very clear. First of all, by "John" I meant the book of John, and had in mind the quote that Claudia provide from John 15. Here is the Spirit of Prophesy statement:
quote:
The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. Christ says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). (1SM 347)
So this was in response to the John text, not the Romans text. Sorry for the confusion.
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