But is that what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:34-35?

Everyone has a different interpretation for that Bible verse, no one on this forum that I have read, takes it literal, not even you.

First -- it does not say anything about ordination.

Secondly -- I presented thoughts on this text once before and people told me not to take it literally, including you, and including your quote from Waggoner who added a lot of exceptions.

Most recognize that earlier (chpt. 11) women were allowed to speak as long as their heads were covered.

Yet Paul says THREE TIMES in that verse, not just once, but THREE TIMES, with no qualifications or exceptions like you just made, that women were to be silent.
He doesn't say they must be silent EXCEPT .... (to sing, to prophecy, to testify) Three times the text emphatically says they are to be silent, not to speak -- and it gives NO exceptions.

So maybe that prophesying and praying mentioned earlier wasn't in church. Maybe they had a special room for women and that was the only place they could prophecy since they weren't allowed to speak in church? That would make more sense if we were to take the above text literally as it reads.

People usually add a lot of exceptions into that verse to the point where women can speak in all manner of leadership roles in the church as long as they are not ordained. But the text has nothing to do with ordination.




Paul is answering a question.
And that question was not about ordination.
So not sure why people see that verse as Paul saying "I do not allow the ordination of women", for he isn't saying that -- it's not the subject of this verse.

Remember Paul, in this letter, is answering a letter sent to him. (see 1 Cor. 7:1)


There is something very interesting when these verses are read in context.




The three chapters leading up to these verses were all dealing with bringing order into the confusion that was reigning in the Corinthian church.

Could Paul be addressing a Corinthian solution to their disorderly services. Silencing women may have been the solution the Corinthians suggested in their letter to Paul. It would fit the prevailing values of the first century in which women did not speak in public. So Paul voices their solution in its extreme to show them their fallacy in thinking this is the solution -- just silence the woman.

BUT WHAT is Paul's reaction to the suggestion for silencing the women?

He exclaims "WHAT? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Sounds like a rebuke to those who suggested it.

He makes it plain that the service is to be for all.
His solution is
Let all things be done decently and in order,
Don't silence

Are you two not members of the SDA church?

Here is what the official doctrine of the Christian church has been for two thousand years on this scripture and if you knew the order of the officially ORDAINED church doctrine on this you would know this.

Read carefully.

“Women in the Church” The Signs of the Times, 13, 18.

E. J. Waggoner

We are asked by a subscriber in Washington Territory to explain how the usages of Seventh-day Adventists, and of many other religious bodies as well, can be harmonized with 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, and 1 Timothy 2:11, 12. He asks: “Were these commands transient? if so, when did they cease to be binding, and by what authority?”...
The question on the text itself is worthy of consideration, for many good people think that the Bible forbids women to take part in public religious service. 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, reads as follows:- {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.14}
“Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.15}
It is worthy of mention that those who are most bitterly opposed to women’s taking part in public service, are inconsistent with their own interpretation of this text. They interpret it to mean that women should never speak in public, either to preach, or to bear testimony in prayer-meeting; yet there is not a church in the land which does not have women singers, and in many of them the singing would greatly languish if it were not for the women. Now it is certain that those who sing do not “keep silence.” We do not think that this is wrong, not a violation of Paul’s injunction; we cite this instance merely for the purpose of showing the inconsistency of those who interpret Paul’s words as prohibiting speaking in meeting, but allowing singing. Now if the injunction to “keep silence” does not prohibit singing, it is reasonable to suppose that it does not prohibit speaking at proper times and in a proper manner, for simple speaking is far more nearly an approach to silence than is ordinary singing. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.16}
And this we shall find to be the case, when we consider a few other texts; for we must always let scripture explain scripture. Read the other text to which our correspondent referred, 1 Timothy 2:11, 12: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” This must certainly be considered as parallel to, and explanatory of, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35. But there is nothing in it which would stop a woman from bearing testimony in social meeting, or even from preaching. Notice that Paul says: “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man,” the idea being of a women’s setting herself up as superior, and assuming authority which does not belong to her. But a simple testimony for Christ is the farthest removed from the assumption of authority, and even the preacher who usurps authority over his hearers, is out of place. The place of the preacher is not to be a lord over God’s heritage, but to act the part of an ambassador for Christ. From the two texts quoted we must conclude that Paul did not mean to prohibit women from witnessing publicly for Christ, but only to have them act with becoming modesty. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.17}
This conclusion is made positive by other texts. In 1 Corinthians 11:4, 5, 13, the same apostle says: “Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head; for that is even all one as if she were shaven.” “Judge in yourselves; is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?” {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.18}
In these verses, and the context, the apostle is giving directions for the proper conducting of public worship. Now if in chapter 14 he meant to teach that women should utter no sound in public service, why did he here give directions concerning their praying and speaking in public assemblies? Certainly no directions are needed for the performance of that which is forbidden, and the fact that Paul tells how women should pray and prophesy in public meeting, shows that such action was not forbidden. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.19}
To forbid women any of the privileges of the gospel would be utterly at variance with the spirit of the gospel. Says Paul: “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:27, 28. That means that in the gospel plan there is no difference made for race, condition, or sex. A woman stands before God a sinner, just the same as a man; she is responsible for her own sins, and, if saved, must be saved in exactly the same way that a man is. No Christian would think of prohibiting a person from taking part in meeting, on the ground that he is a servant, or because he is of a different nationality from the majority of the members of the church; then no Christian should prevent a person from speaking to the praise of God, because that person is a woman. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.20}
To interpret Paul’s language in 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, as meaning that women should bear no part in public worship is to do violence to the Scriptures which, being inspired, must always and everywhere be harmonious. Thus in Acts 21:8, 9, we read that Philip the evangelist “had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.” Paul speaks of Phebe, “a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea” (Romans 16:1), and in Philippians 4:3 bespeaks the care of the church for “those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other fellow-laborers.” And the mighty and eloquent Apollos was instructed in the way of God by Aquila and his wife Priscilla. Acts 18:2, 24-26. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.21}
In the Old Testament we read of “Miriam the prophetess” (Exodus 15:20) by whom the Lord spoke as well as by Moses and Aaron (Numbers 12:1, 2). We read also (Judges 4) of “Deborah, a prophetess” who judged Israel, and whose wisdom and prudence were esteemed so highly that Barak would not go to war without her counsel and her presence. Still later we read of “Huldah the prophetess” (2 Kings 22:14) to whom Josiah sent when he would inquire of the Lord concerning the book of the law which the priest had found. There is something remarkable about this case. At this time Jeremiah had been prophesying for five years, yet the king sent to Huldah instead of to him. Moreover the king’s messengers to the prophetess were, among others, a scribe of the law, and the high priest, whose lips should keep knowledge, and at whose mouth men were accustomed to seek the law. Micah 2:7. Yet it seems that on this occasion no one had the word of the Lord except this woman. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 278.22}
We have considered this matter at this length not only for the satisfaction of our correspondent, but also to meet a very common infidel cavil. There are many men, and more women, of a class who seek to overthrow the divinely-established order of nature, who are accustomed to rail at the apostle Paul as a crusty old bachelor and a misogynist, because of his words to the Corinthians. Hastily assuming that he absolutely forbade women to take any part in public meetings, they think that the present liberty accorded to women is an evidence of the advance which people of the nineteenth century have made over Paul’s antiquated notions. From railing at Paul they naturally come to despise all his writings, and as a natural consequence, they lightly esteem the entire Bible. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 279.1}
But Paul was not crusty, he was not a misogynist, and he was not a bachelor. He was a large-hearted, whole-souled, loving Christian, who treats of the family relation with a knowledge and tenderness not exceeded by any writer who ever lived. Instead of commanding women to say nothing in meetings for the worship of God, he encouraged them even to occupy responsible positions. What he did do was to give instruction that would keep them from being classed with the heathen women who, in their eagerness for notice, divested themselves of that modesty which always characterizes true woman, and which the gospel tends to heighten. W. {SITI May 12, 1887, p. 279.2}

THIS IS THE OFFICIAL SDA/ CHRISTIAN CHURCH DOCTRINE ON THIS TEXT. IF YOU ARGUE AGAINST IT MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!

I think you tend to "rail" out without reading what people are saying.

Waggoner clearly says Paul didn't mean that "women be silent".


Women be silent don't speak in church, it's a shame to speak -- no, Waggoner says, Paul didn't mean that.
I agreed Paul didn't mean that.

But then Waggoner goes on to say that Paul did mean that, and even though the text emphatically declares three times, with NO EXCEPTIONS that women be silent with no speaking, no discussion, Waggoner tries to hang on to thinking Paul did mean it, but then has to rationalizes a lot of exceptions (since Paul was earlier saying women could pray and testify etc) and then Waggoner puts a whole different meaning on it.

However, either Paul meant it, or he didn't mean it.
This going around in circles (he didn't mean it, but he did mean it) just confuses the issue.


That verse in 1 Cor. 14 isn't talking about women usurping superiority by speaking -- it isn't talking about ordination. Paul is refuting the Corinthians that want to silence women, and it is obvious he says that women can participate as long as it's done decently and in order.




The way that text is used and understood by most people is not correct.



And by the way -- Waggoner's article is not OFFICIAL POSITION, it is his own study.

Long ago, when Roman Catholicism had fallen away, the leaders had a tendency, in which they indulged themselves with impunity, to tell fanciful tales to get people aflutter and do as they wished. Suddenly, it seemed, the nails of the cross were with them, the shroud, the bones, and miracles testifying to their "autenticity".

Some members here are demonstrating, in very strange ways, this very tendency. The leading of the Spirit of prophecy (the Holy Scriptures, Acts 2:17-18) has been supplanted by them with dubious claims of prophethood, and with words that do NOT profit. Then they vehemently decry those who speak the truth.

///

Why do you think you have to continually mention the Catholic church as a guideline for the Seventh Day Adventist church?

I was givining a personal testimony. The bible gives us plenty of examples of using personal testimony to get a point across. Are you saying Jesus was inspired by the Catholics?

Do you deny scripture?

I have renounced Catholicism as from Satan, you keep mentioning them in reguards to the true Church of Christ like that is all you think about.

Prove your point through scripture or shut your mouth demon. In the name of Jesus amen.

You are a master at distraction. Trying to convey your demonic thoughts as if your words mean more than scripture. I can prove EVERYTHING I just said that you are mocking. The Catholic church cannot prove ANY Of the claims that you mentioned as similar to my claims.

I gave the name of the church I used to go to and and I can supply about 30 witnesses to the day I was mentioning. Can you say that about your precious Catholic church?

Everyone here, witness the words of this man...

Mr Peterson, are you claiming that the Catholic Church "fell away"?

The Catholic Church was NEVER in Christ EVER!!!!!!!!

The Mystery of iniquity was alive in the time of Paul, hundreds of years BEFORE the Catholic Church was officially formed. They sprung from the evil root of the mystery of iniquity from their inception.

You are starting to sound more and more like a Catholic Apologist. They claim that the Catholic Church was the orginal church since the beginning. The bible says they were NEVER in Christ EVER!!!!

The Roman church is not the white horse church, they have always been the beast, the mystery of Iniquity has always been at the root of Catholicism. The DRAGON gave them their seat and authority. ONLY A CATHOLIC WOULD CLAIM THEY FELL AWAY FROM THE FAITH.

You prove over and over who you serve.

FALLEN is Babylon th Great.

Please read carefully, I have obviously been reading your posts closer than you have mine, and I will prove it.

Where in what I wrote do see me saying women should keep silent permanently in church? Talk about jumping to conclusions. You obviously didn't read what I said very well.

My point was that women are to be under subjection to men in the church, which IS biblical! I used the quote from Waggoner to show that women can sing in church, and women can give testimony in church, and women can prophesy in church (with head covered) because there are other texts that Paul wrote that gave guidelines to how this should be done.

I was quoting that writing to show what the PIONEERS believed. Waggoner was speaking for the church!!! He kept saying "WE BELIEVE" and this would NEVER have happened if this wasn't the official doctrine of our church, or Mrs. White would have rebuked him in the Spirit, and not one person contradicts this statement out of all of the pioneers of the SDA church.

Women could not possibly be ordained under those guidelines...that was my point.

And I want to point something gently because you may not have seen this in the quote even though I emphasized it for you very clearly, but you said;

"That verse in 1 Cor. 14 isn't talking about women usurping superiority by speaking"

This is a lie. You might not have seen it, but you are speaking a lie here. This is what Waggoner said in that quote that you obviously missed...

"But there is nothing in it which would stop a woman from bearing testimony in social meeting, or even from preaching. Notice that Paul says: “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man,” the idea being of a women’s setting herself up as superior, and assuming authority which does not belong to her.

Waggoner is saying that this text IS about women usurping authority by speaking.

Are claiming this is not true? Are you saying that Waggoner didn't say that? OR are you claiming that you know more about this subject than Waggoner or even Paul himself?

“While I do not make it a part of my work to presume to interpret that which has been written, yet I may be pardoned for expressing as my conviction the thought that this article published in the Review does not refer to the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel, but rather touches upon the question of setting apart, for special duties in local churches, God-fearing women in such churches where circumstances call for such action.
And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world; but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister... it is simply saying that so far as my knowledge extends, Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the general customs of the church in those matters.”—C. C. Crisler

THE "GENERAL CUSTOMS OF THE CHURCH" Dedication!

This is a personal testimony from a very close friend of Mrs White. How could someone so close to Mrs White get this wrong? Do you think she was a hypocrite who wrote one thing but lived a different belief?

So if Mrs White was quoted as commenting on "the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world" then wouldn't this be a condemnation of the practice to avoid persecution from the world?

Doesn't this mean she was saying the practice of ordaining women to the church as pastors would lessen our influence in the world? Why would the General Conference try to over rule this testimony and want the church to be in peril?

James, E. J. Waggoner did not dictate dogma or doctrine for the church. He merely stated his opinion.

In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is obviously addressing disorderly worship services. "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" Verse 23. His concern is for visitors. Orderly worship edifies. Disorderly worship vilifies.

The fact Paul counsels women to learn from their husbands at home strongly suggests asking their husbands during worship services added to the confusion and disorderliness. The same thing is true of anyone asking questions during worship services in a loud and disorderly manner.

There was an elderly couple who caused disorder during church services because he would loudly ask his wife, "What did he say?" And then she would loudly repeat it. We solved the problem by issuing him an assisted hearing device.

There was a young family who caused disorder during church service because the children loudly asked their mom and dad to explain the sermon. Mom and dad tried to accommodate them as quietly as they could but it still very disruptive. We solved the problem by installing a window and speakers in a side room.

Paul is not prohibiting ordaining women to serve as pastors or elders. Paul is simply counseling people to conduct orderly, godly worship services. He counseled men and women to "keep silence in the church" when speaking causes confusion and disorder. "Let him keep silence in the church". Verse 28. "Let your women keep silence in the churches". Verse 34.