But you just got through saying it is never a sin to obey Jesus!

So why don't you tell us?

What you have said, is a murderer is someone who has not killed someone. And killing someone who has killed someone is perfectly fine thing to do.

You say Jesus tells people to kill those who have not killed someone. Therefore, according to your very own definition, you are saying Jesus tells people to murder and is a murderer.


Tell us, how is it justified for capital punishment against children? Ever know of a judge giving capital punishment to a child? But yet you think Jesus does. And you think that's not wrong? But oh, you say, it's war and "enemy combatants". A child is an "enemy combatant"? Really?

Yes, and Tom, APL and others have pointed them out. But what do you think of those who think it was God's ideal will for people to murder each other in the Old Testament? What about those who think God intentionally and directly causes pain, death, suffering, and illness today? What about those who think God will murder people in the future, those who disagree with Him?

This is what will lead them to either declare or actually believe God called them to murder others who don't follow how they interpret truth. They are supporting their god, a god of death, a god of revenge and pain. And they are only supporting their god by taking similar actions against those who disagree with them. That's how the Inquisition came about. People who believed it God by that way, and therefore permitted the ruling power to do it.

You say I said so. But the truth is clear. Your argument is with the Word of God. It was Jesus who commanded capital punishment and war.


Again, your argument is with Jesus. It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to utterly kill every man, woman, and child.

God had promised to give them the land, and it could not be obtained except as a gift. The mightiest army that the world has ever seen, armed with the most approved weapons of war, could not take it; while a few unarmed men, strong in faith and giving glory to God, could have possessed it with ease. The force that takes the kingdom of heaven is not the force of arms.

The germ in the seed grows by the unfolding of the life-principle which God has implanted. Its development depends upon no human power. So it is with the kingdom of Christ. It is a new creation. Its principles of development are the opposite of those that rule the kingdoms of this world. Earthly governments prevail by physical force; they maintain their dominion by war; but the founder of the new kingdom is the Prince of Peace. The Holy Spirit represents worldly kingdoms under the symbol of fierce beasts of prey; but Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. In His plan of government there is no employment of brute force to compel the conscience. The Jews looked for the kingdom of God to be established in the same way as the kingdoms of the world. To promote righteousness they resorted to external measures. They devised methods and plans. But Christ implants a principle. By implanting truth and righteousness, He counterworks error and sin. {COL 77.1}

What is your purpose in trying to change his mind?

I doubt he will change his mind and having this KILLING thread at the top of the forum for months on end is rather depressing.

Do you want our corrupt justice systems to reactivate this?

They will probably kill all the wrong people and set the criminals free.

Dedication, it sounds like you would like to see this thread ended.

APL, you are avoiding the point - Does God punish? You say, Yes, He does punish by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, and evil angels the freedom to cause death and destruction within the limits He Himself establishes and works to enforce.

However, you refuse to publicly confess Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You believe Jesus commanded it because the Jews demanded it. Thus, you believe Jesus commanded them to sin.

MM - THE point is that God never wanted the people to fight. That is the point. You don't see the parallel example of divorce. By your reasoning, God condoned divorce. He gave rules for it, thus He condoned it. But did God ever want divorce? No. He gave rules only because of the hardness of the hearts of the people. Christ showed us what the first principles really were. No killing, no divorce, no lying, love your enemies, do good to your enemies. No self-defense, no repaying evil with evil. You refuse to plublicly confess the real commands that Jesus wanted. You believe God wanted death and killing, and sickness and disease. It was God's plan! NO IT WAS NOT. NEVER WAS GOD'S PLAN.

The title question is - Does God punish? You say, "He gave rules only because of the hardness of the hearts of the people." You say, Jesus commanded killing because the Jews demanded it. You also say, Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

Yes, Jesus also said "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven". But it is a "mistake" to assume Jesus is recanting what He commanded in the OT.

Christ, the angel whom God had appointed to go before his chosen people, gave to Moses statutes and requirements necessary to a living religion and to govern the people of God. Christians commit a terrible mistake in calling this law severe and arbitrary, and then contrasting it with the gospel and mission of Christ in his ministry on earth, as though he were in opposition to the just precepts which they call the law of Moses. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 12}

Jesus commanded "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"

Jesus said, "Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."


You read, but don't understand.