You have given a very thorough explanation of your belief.
Thank-you.

Now for the other side.



GL&L wrote: What we see is:
1)The winds of destruction are held back UNTIL the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead.
2) The winds obviously must be able to harm the 144,000, so the holding back is necessary until the sealing job is done.


Releasing the four winds are the releasing of the human passions and releasing the restraints put on Satan.


The four winds are held back until everyone who can be saved is saved, then probation closes and the winds are let loose.

Obviously from numerous quotes, those winds are already 'slipping' and are blowing more and more, yet the full impact of them is still held under control until "this message of the kingdom is preached in all the world and then shall the end come".

Christ leaving the sanctuary, the close of probation and the full release of the four winds happen at the same time.

Thus it is imperative that the sealing be done prior to the full release of the winds, for after it will be too late.



GL&L wrote: 3)As Ezek.9 and Rev.7 are the “same thing”, then the vision scene must be seen as one event.
4)What destruction do we see in Ezek. 9? We see the Lord slaying WITHIN His sanctuary.
5)And where can we find specifically where Inspiration (EGW) describes the four winds in connection with the mark of the beast (Sunday law)?


“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels.” (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152
By the way, can I ask why you've never addressed the above quote? We cannot overlook such a plain statement.)

I haven't overlooked it -- I addressed it in a previous post either on this thread or the Ezekiel 9 thread.

This quote does not say the four winds are the Sunday laws. Though the final effort to destroy all resistors to these laws will be part of the released four winds.

But in the beginning they are the "threatening" that soon those winds will be fully released.
Sunday laws come before the mark of the beast, and before the close of probation and before the full release of the four winds.




Above are several quotes that the releasing of the four winds is when God's restraint on human passions and satanic activity is removed and the whole world is plunged into a destruction worse than that which befell Jerusalem of old.


GL&L wrote: So to summarize the sealing of the 144,000 can only take place BEFORE the Sunday law. The destruction of Ezekiel 9 (same event in vision) likewise must happen before the Sunday law . The church purification is to fit the church for the Loud Cry. A pure house of God where the “called out” ones can come into. Then only can His 'full Spirit” be poured out among His church.

How can this be, if God's people GOD'S CHURCH must first have the Sunday law test before they are sealed, as we just read?



And how could this quote be true if all apostate church members are dead before the test even comes?



Yes, the church will be cleansed, multitudes, when faced with persecution will renounce their faith and leave.

And no -- the persecutors are not "God's agents" they are the devil's agents who is seeking to get the whole world under his control. First by undermining the faith of church members and keeping them from getting a firm hold on Christ, and then inflicting severe persecution to get them to renounce what little faith they have.

GL&L quoted;“Clad in the armor of Christ’s righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners” (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer. “(Prophets and Kings, p.725)

Yes, Satan will not win.
There will be a remnant that will remain faithful, who will cling to Christ and his honor and commandments, no matter what terrors are imposed upon them.
The Holy Spirit will empower them as they are "forced to bear witness for the truth... called to speak before councils and in courts of justice"

"You have given a very thorough explanation of your belief.
Thank-you."

You're welcome, and what I desire here is not to prove you wrong, or to prove I'm right but to exalt the "truth". And when we see either one's position is unsustainable by the word of God, either by weight of evidence or the clarity of His word, we do well to abandon our ideas and "turn tail" as it were to truth as discovered anew.

This weekend will have some time to respond. Thanks for your time and thoughts as well. Bro. Rob

DED--There is no need to make symbols of things that aren't symbols.
EGW in her statement is not speaking of that destruction as a symbol, but as an example.
Why make symbols of things that aren't used in a symbolic manner?

GSLL-- What we are trying to establish is – who is the Israel of today? I've shown already the clear statement from EGW saying that the “Israel of today” is the SDA church (Test.for the church, vol.9, p.164). Your quotes do not show where the she calls the world, Babylon, Jerusalem or Judah –the Israel of today.

The vision is taking place in “the city”, “Jerusalem”, “Israel” and “Judah"—terms by none of which the world can be called, as they apply exclusively to the people of God, the church—this work of separation is, accordingly, confined strictly to the church. (hold on I'll get to your literal idea in Babylonian times :-)

The Israel of today is NOT the world, it is the SDA church. That's who SOP specifically says is God's Israel today.

We know that the Ezek. 9 vision will occur in the soon to be fulfilled latter day application ("to the letter"). This is verified in several SOP references. The most specific is –

“We are amid the perils of the last days, the time will soon come when the prophecy of Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled; that prophecy should be carefully studied, for it will be fulfilled to the very letter. Study also the tenth chapter which represents the hand of God as at work to bring perfect method and harmonious working into all the operations of his prepared instrumentalities. The eleventh and twelfth chapters also should receive critical, thoughtful attention. Let these prophecies be studied on your knees before God; unless you take up the stumbling-blocks which by your own perverse spirit you have laid in the way of many who have been connected with you, God will turn His face utterly from you and your associates”( 1888 Materials, p.1303).

So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “Jerusalem”, “Judah”, “Israel”, “city” is.


GL&L-- We need to get back to the basics of understanding a VERY IMPORTANT principal of God's word. We must always study SOP writings and square it with the Bible, not the other way around.

Dedication writes: Yet, the conclusions you have reached are not primarily from the Bible, but by using EGW (and Houteff) are they not?

I am not saying we are Not to use SOP, but to make sure it collaborates the Bible, not vice versa. Each conclusion I've shown is applying this. Hopefully I will get this point across as we go further here.

Ded--A simple reading of Ezekiel shows a prophet speaking to his people (in Judea) who at that time were facing imminent destruction by the Babylonian armies.
GSLL-- This is not correct. If you mean speaking to "his people" as the two tribes of Judah, then this is not what the vision said.

Since at the time of the vision, the house of Judah, the two-tribe kingdom, was in captivity in the land of the Chaldeans, and the house of Israel, the ten-tribe kingdom, was in dispersion among the nations whither it had been carried away and scattered some years before (2 Kings 17:6), there was no possibility of Ezekiel's delivering the message to them. And as it is to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Ezek. 9:9), -- the twelve tribes, -- consequently it was prophetic in Ezekiel's time.
  


DEDICATION WRITES: What you are forgetting is that Ezekiel is speaking about the literal temple that Solomon built, and the literal city of Jerusalem, and the literal people living there back in his day. The armies of Babylon were about to come level the city, many thousands would be killed, and the rest taken captive. Of course he is clearly speaking of Jerusalem and Judea, because that is where he was directing his message to.

GSLL--I am not “forgetting”. You appear to be fast and loose with the facts. Further, the vision shows the Lord directing His ANGELS to do the slaughter not to work through human beings to accomplish the destruction which clearly happened in the Babylonian invasion.

Here are important questions for you –
1)Where in SOP do you get the reference and your belief that Ezekiel 9 was fulfilled in the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc(Solomons temple destroyed)? Show me the quotes to back that up. I believe you cannot support that from Inspiration.

2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9? Further how could the “Man in linen” literally go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the sighing and crying ones?

3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

Dedication-- Now you accept EGW's statement that there would be another more terrible fulfilment.
GSLL-- As already shown this application cannot be the literal application. Because of the many facts set forth in the vision which do not come close to applying to the “world”.

Dedication-- Many of the OT prophecies that were primarily directed to the prophets contemporary Israelites also have applications to last day events. However, their applications do not follow a step by step literal replay of the original fulfilment.
GSLL--This is not entirely correct.

“Do not follow a step by step literal replay of the original fulfillment”? How can you say this in regards to Ezek. 9 when EGW says a “literal” and “to the very letter” application will happen? That sounds like a “step by step literal” fulfillment I would say.
GSLL-- GC. P.656 application must therefore be a secondary application of Ezek.9.

Dedication-- The parallels are all there.
Just like the Jewish leaders were the first to fall and receive the wrath of the Babylonian armies in the temple compounds,
So in the final fulfillment the religious leaders will be the first to receive the terrible anger of the people they have deceived.
And the destruction of Jerusalem is an example of the destruction of the whole world in the end.

GSLL--Completely off base are these conclusions. As shown the GC application cannot be the literal fulfillment 'to the letter” because-

1) Ezekiel is commanded “Son, go, get thee unto the HOUSE OF ISRAEL” As shown Ezekiel was in captivity and the 10 tribes were already dispersed among the heathen and never reunited. Therefore HE COULD NOT GO TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. NOR DID HE EVER. Thus in order for it to be “literally fulfilled” and go to His own people (Israel) there must and will be main application to the SDA church.

2)As I mentioned before, we cannot use EGW to supplant the clear words of Scripture. She must accommodate them. So in this case we are only left with the understanding of some type of secondary application in GC p.656. To do otherwise is to destroy the plain meaning of the “very letter” of Ezekiel 9. You can't throw out the terms (City, Jerusalem, Israel, Judah) and say “Oh well they don't mean that” or “those terms means Babylon or world”. Again –Scripture first, EGW second.

3) Remember the Lord said to Ezekiel: “Son of man, I SEND THEE to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me.”..”For thou are NOT SENT to a people of a strange language, BUT TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.” (Ezek. 2:3, 3:5) – This NEVER happened literally in Ezekiel's day as you propose.

4) The churches of Babylon are NOT “the Lord's sanctuary” and the “house of Jacob”. The terms have ALWAYS meant God's remnant people and HIS church. (Again provide specific Scripture or SOP proof to the contrary if you can)

“Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUCH GREAT AND IMPORTANT TRUTHS REVEALED TO THEM, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience.” (Letter 106, 1909)

Dedication-- We can always find more truth in scripture. But the man who I think you are referring to as Elijah (V.Houteff) destroys a lot of the truth that was revealed to Ellen White.
Thus I do not consider him a prophet.

GSLL-Perhaps EGW says it better than I could –
“Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.
The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.” (Test. To Ministers, p.105-106)

Dedication-- Releasing the four winds are the releasing of the human passions and releasing the restraints put on Satan.

GSLL- Yes, I can agree to this. However the Sunday law is part of this “human restraint” that is “let loose”. Now, going back to our textbook quote, we notice that the “sealing” of the 144,000 is DONE before any releasing is done. This is supported by the exact quote you gave me, did you miss this very important verse?-- Were it not that God has commanded angelic agencies to control the satanic agencies that are seeking to break loose and to destroy, there would be no hope. But the winds are to be held until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. . . . {HP 96.3}



GL&L wrote: So to summarize the sealing of the 144,000 can only take place BEFORE the Sunday law. The destruction of Ezekiel 9 (same event in vision) likewise must happen before the Sunday law . The church purification is to fit the church for the Loud Cry. A pure house of God where the “called out” ones can come into. Then only can His 'full Spirit” be poured out among His church.

DED-- How can this be, if God's people GOD'S CHURCH must first have the Sunday law test before they are sealed, as we just read?

GSLL-This test is upon the world's people (of which some are God's people)The sinners in "ZION" will have been sifted out by this time (See the numerous quotes I've already shown from Scripture on this)


Quote:
This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who proved their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast (Letter 11, 1890).


And how could this quote be true if all apostate church members are dead before the test even comes?

GSLL--It's true because those in the world is who she is addressing as “the people of God” in these quotes. We know clearly that EGW addresses the fact that many who are in the Sunday churches are infact to be the “people of God”. This does not address the “Israel of Today” as per EGW, Test. Vol. 9, p.164. God's remnant and “the people of God” are two different people. You can't lump them all together.

An Example of our previous "Church purification" beliefs--

He "shall suddenly come to His temple [the church or 'floor'],...but who may abide the day of His coming?  and who shall stand when He  appeareth?  for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' sope: And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the  sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver,  that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in  righteousness." Mal. 3:1-3.
Tract 4                            36
   In explanation of this scripture, the denominational publication (published and owned by the denomination as well as endorsed and used by the Sabbath School  Department throughout the world in 1929), Isaiah,  the Gospel Prophet, Vol. 3, p. 49, says: "Verse  20. [Isa. 59.] 'The Redeemer shall come to Zion.'  This is not the coming in the clouds, but coming to the church.  And when He comes, He will do the work mentioned in Malachi 3:1-3."
   This official exposition of the text shows that in 1929 the denomination taught that the prophecy of Malachi 3, promising a thorough work of purification, is a message to the church.

How the church has changed and not for the better I dare say. Our church once agreed that the Scriptures teach of a literal purification but sadly the “modernist” element has taken hold.

So basically you are saying
"Israel" is the SDA church
but
"the people of God" are the world??????

You wrote:
The Israel of today is NOT the world, it is the SDA church. That's who SOP specifically says is God's Israel today.

... those in the world is who she is addressing as “the people of God” in these quotes. We know clearly that EGW addresses the fact that many who are in the Sunday churches are infact to be the “people of God”. This does not address the “Israel of Today” as per EGW, Test. Vol. 9, p.164. God's remnant and “the people of God” are two different people. You can't lump them all together.

This isn't making any sense at all --
Not according to scripture or according to EGW.

First of all ISRAEL is NOT the SDA church.

Hopefully Seventh-day Adventist members are part of Israel.

The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God).



Who is Israel -- all who have genuinely accepted Christ.
And yes, many who are in the Sunday churches have genuinely accepted Christ. So they are ISRAEL as are Seventh-day Adventists who have genuinely accepted Christ.

*************
APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

Secondly --
The test (Sunday vs Saturday) obviously affects Sabbath keepers, (ie Seventh-day Adventists)
And those large numbers of apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists before the Sunday laws were enforced, and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren".



************

THE FACTS CONCERNING LITERAL JERUSALEM IN EZEKIEL'S TIME

You say I am "loose with the facts".
But you wrote:
Since at the time of the vision, the house of Judah, the two-tribe kingdom, was in captivity in the land of the Chaldeans, and the house of Israel, the ten-tribe kingdom, was in dispersion among the nations whither it had been carried away and scattered some years before (2 Kings 17:6), there was no possibility of Ezekiel's delivering the message to them. And as it is to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Ezek. 9:9), -- the twelve tribes, -- consequently it was prophetic in Ezekiel's time.

That is not correct. True the northern kingdom had been destroyed by the Assyrians earlier. But Jerusalem was still standing, the temple was still standing.
The descendants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were Israelites.

There were three invasions by the Babylonians on Jerusalem.
1) The first invasion was in 607 B.C., at which time a number of the people from the upper class families were taken captive, including Daniel and his friends 2 K.24:1, Jer.25:1, Dan.1:1-7.
(2) The second invasion was 597 B.C., at which time the young king Jehoiachin and 10,000 of the people were carried into captivity. Among these were Ezekiel and one of the ancestors of Mordicai, the cousin of Esther, 2 K.24:10-16; Eze.1:1-2; Est.2:5-6.
(3)The third invasion, and this time full scale siege and war, took place in 587 B.C. Jerusalem was conquered and its walls and palaces as well as the temple were destroyed; thousands perished and most of the rest carried away into exile, 2 K.24:18; 24:1-27; 2 Chron.36:11-21; Jer.52:1-11.

Ezekiel's vision took place between the second and third invasion. In Jerusalem, Zedekiah was king. Nebuchadnezzar allowed Zedekiah to take the throne under the condition that he not rebel against him. Zedekiah reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. During this time Jeremiah, in Jerusalem was urging king Zedekiah NOT to rebel against Babylon. (Jer. 27:11-12)

A false prophet, Hananiah, was predicting that in two years God would restore everything. Jehoiachin and all the other captives would be liberated and the yoke of Babylon would be broken. (Jeremiah 28)

And yes, this is the time of Ezekiel's vision.
His vision took place
In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity.(Ezekiel 1:2)

Thus Jerusalem would not be destroyed for another six years after his vision. And yes, Ezekiel was prophesying it's destruction.
In great detail he reveals the sins. The removal of the shekinah glory from the temple..
Chapter four he does a visual representation of the siege of Jerusalem and its coming destruction.

Interestingly, the people in Jerusalem were saying, God gave us the land, and he removed the trouble makers into exile, we are the inheritors of God's blessings and possessors of the land. But Ezekiel declares God's messages to them -- it's actually those in exile that are being preserved, and God would give them the land. (Ezekiel 11:14-21)

These are the facts --
Ezekiel's original message was to his people.
That message has another fulfilment in the last days.

YOUR QUESTIONS

1)1)Where in SOP do you get the reference and your belief that Ezekiel 9 was fulfilled in the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc(Solomons temple destroyed)?

see answers above. But here are quotes as well:





2)Further how could the “Man in linen” literally go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the sighing and crying ones?

The same way the seal of God is put on God's people in the time of the end. It's not a literal mark painted on people's foreheads.

The problem is that Houteff makes symbols literal, instead of recognizing that symbols remain symbolic but represent something literal.


3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

Are the three angels' messages proclaimed by three literal angels flying in the heavens, or do they represent people?

"And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.

Seems to be saying that these are men.
"Angels" in that they are messengers of Gods' wrath, but men none the less. Even the "man in linen" is pictured as a man, Christ in His human form as priest, seeking to save all who are true.

The north --
Most of Israel's enemies descended from the north.
Jerusalem was besieged for a year and half, reducing the people to horrible hunger before they breached the wall.

They came from the way of the higher gate, this is the eastern gate called the higher or upper gate, because it was above the court of the Israelites. see 2 Kings 15:35;

This gate is toward the north: where were the image of jealousy, and the women weeping for Tammuz, and other idolatrous practices were committed. There they entered every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; as ordered. (Soldiers)

According to the Talmud, Nebuchadnezzar specifically had the members of the Great and Small Sanhedrins killed, for these had largely filled king Zedekiah's mind with ambitions to rebel. The slaughter of the inhabitants of Jerusalem was huge. While some were taken captive,the temple was pillaged and finally was set on fire and utterly destroyed.

Got your response , will as usual give attention to it this weekend and respond.

Ded-- First of all ISRAEL is NOT the SDA church

GSLL- “In order to be purified and to remain pure, Seventh-day Adventists must have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and in their homes. The Lord has given me light that when the Israel of today humble themselves before Him, and cleanse the soul-temple from all defilement, He will hear their prayers in behalf of the sick and will bless in the use of His remedies for disease. (Testimonies. Vol. 9, p.164)

In EGW's Testimonies for the Church volume 5, p. 80 we read – “God will have a people pure and true in the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the STRENGTH OF ISRAEL. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor.”

Again we see that she is directly speaking to and labeling the SDA church--Israel. In fact in that last reference, if you read a few paragraphs before( and in clear context) she mentions “Many of OUR people are lukewarm” and then goes on to mention us as Israel.

SDA = Israel of Today.

Ded --Hopefully Seventh-day Adventist members are part of Israel.

GSLL- There is no “hopefully” about it. Unless of course we blindly ignore the above plain statements. Are there sinners in the midst? Of course. That is why Ezekiel 9 needs to occur—church purification (will expand more in a bit).


Ded--The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God). 

Originally Posted By: scripture
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3:16 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

GSLL-- Those quotes are true, however there must and always has been a distinction as a “body of” God's people—a church in other words.

When our SDA church came into existence it “separated” from the other churches, why? Because we became the “repairer of the breach” (repairing the trampling upon His Commandments—specifically the Sabbath) a separate people to proclaim the 3 angels message and the KEEP the Commandments of God—unlike the other so-called “Christian” churches. SDA church is His remnant church. Baptist's are not, Methodist's are not, Jehovah Witnesses are not, etc.

Yes, there may be found people within those churches who know the Lord but as a 'body” that cannot be referred as, “The Israel of today”.

So this is why EGW calls us and not the world—Israel. She recognized that there was people in the other churches that knew Christ (didn't have all the light yet) but as a church body they were very wrong in their practices. Hence He was calling out “His” people to proclaim HIS message today.
This all points out to conclusive evidence that God had to establish a “people” from among the other so called Christian churches.

So again, the “Israel of today” is the SDA remnant church.

SDA fundamental belief no.12--
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness" 

Just as the world had believers that knew God back in the OT days, God still had ONE church then and He has one now.




************* 


Ded--APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

Secondly --
The test (Sunday vs Saturday) obviously affects Sabbath keepers, (ie Seventh-day Adventists) 
And those large numbers of apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists before the Sunday laws were enforced, and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren". 

Originally Posted By: EGW
As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves....a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth,abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, whoonce rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren.When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them. {GC88 608.1}

GSLL-- This was addressed already in the Ezekiel 9 forum.
************

Ded- THE FACTS CONCERNING LITERAL JERUSALEM IN EZEKIEL'S TIME 

You say I am "loose with the facts".
But you wrote:

GSLL- Since at the time of the vision, the house of Judah, the two-tribe kingdom, was in captivity in the land of the Chaldeans, and the house of Israel, the ten-tribe kingdom, was in dispersion among the nations whither it had been carried away and scattered some years before (2 Kings 17:6), there was no possibility of Ezekiel's delivering the message to them. And as it is to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Ezek. 9:9), -- the twelve tribes, -- consequently it was prophetic in Ezekiel's time.

Ded--That is not correct. True the northern kingdom had been destroyed by the Assyrians earlier. But Jerusalem was still standing, the temple was still standing. 
The descendants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were Israelites.

There were three invasions by the Babylonians on Jerusalem.
1) The first invasion was in 607 B.C., at which time a number of the people from the upper class families were taken captive, including Daniel and his friends 2 K.24:1, Jer.25:1, Dan.1:1-7. 
(2) The second invasion was 597 B.C., at which time the young king Jehoiachin and 10,000 of the people were carried into captivity. Among these were Ezekiel and one of the ancestors of Mordicai, the cousin of Esther, 2 K.24:10-16; Eze.1:1-2; Est.2:5-6. 
(3)The third invasion, and this time full scale siege and war, took place in 587 B.C. Jerusalem was conquered and its walls and palaces as well as the temple were destroyed; thousands perished and most of the rest carried away into exile, 2 K.24:18; 24:1-27; 2 Chron.36:11-21; Jer.52:1-11.

Ezekiel's vision took place between the second and third invasion. In Jerusalem, Zedekiah was king. Nebuchadnezzar allowed Zedekiah to take the throne under the condition that he not rebel against him. Zedekiah reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. During this time Jeremiah, in Jerusalem was urging king Zedekiah NOT to rebel against Babylon. (Jer. 27:11-12) 

GSLL- This is not addressing the main point. Take a good look at the above statement. Notice my underlined point. As the 10 tribes had been lost several years prior to Ezekiel's vision there is NO WAY the Ezek. 9 vision could be given to the “house of Israel”--12 tribes. ONLY the house of Judah could have be receivers of his message.

Ezek.9:9-- “..The iniquity of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and JUDAH is exceedingly great,..” The vision calls for the LORD to go through BOTH the house of Israel and Judah (12 tribes). The babylonian slaughter occurred upon the house of Judah.

Yes, the house of Judah is OF the house of Israel, but it is not— the house of Israel. Big difference. We know that the northern 10 tribes are the house of Israel and the southern 2 tribes were the house of Judah.

So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “house of Israel and Judah”, is.


Ded- YOUR QUESTIONS

GSLL--1)Where in SOP do you get the reference and your belief that Ezekiel 9 was fulfilled in the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc(Solomons temple destroyed)? 

"While Jeremiah continued to bear his testimony in the land of Judah, the prophet Ezekiel was raised up from among the captives in Babylon, to warn and to comfort the exiles, and also to confirm the word of the Lord that was being spoken through Jeremiah. During the years that remained of Zedekiah's reign, Ezekiel made very plain the folly of trusting to the false predictions of those who were causing the captives to hope for an early return to Jerusalem. He was also instructed to foretell, by means of a variety of symbols and solemn messages, the siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem." {PK 448.1} 

"In the sixth year of the reign of Zedekiah, the Lord revealed to Ezekiel in vision some of the abominations that were being practiced in Jerusalem, and within the gate of the Lord's house, and even in the inner court. The chambers of images, and the pictured idols, "every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel"--all these in rapid succession passed before the astonished gaze of the prophet. Ezekiel 8:10." {PK 448.2} 

"Those who should have been spiritual leaders among the people, "the ancients of the house of Israel," to the number of seventy, were seen offering incense before the idolatrous representations that had been introduced into hidden chambers within the sacred precincts of the temple court. "The Lord seeth us not," the men of Judah flattered themselves as they engaged in their heathenish practices; "the Lord hath forsaken the earth," they blasphemously declared. Verses 11, 12." {PK 448.3} 
There were still "greater abominations" for the prophet to behold. At a gate leading from the outer to the inner court he was shown "women weeping for Tammuz," and within "the inner court of the Lord's house, . . . at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshiped the sun toward the east." Verses 13-16. {PK 448.4} 
And now the glorious Being who accompanied Ezekiel throughout this astonishing vision of wickedness in high places in the land of Judah, inquired of the prophet: "Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke Me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them." Verses 17, 18. {PK 449.1} 
Through Jeremiah the Lord had declared of the wicked men who presumptuously dared to stand before the people in His name: "Both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in My house have I found their wickedness." Jeremiah 23:11. In the terrible arraignment of Judah as recorded in the closing narrative of the chronicler of Zedekiah's reign, this charge of violating the sanctity of the temple was repeated. "Moreover," the sacred writer declared, "all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the Lord which He had hallowed in Jerusalem." 2 Chronicles 36:14. 
{PK 449.2} 
The day of doom for the kingdom of Judah was fast approaching. No longer could the Lord set before them the hope of averting the severest of His judgments. "Should ye be utterly unpunished?" He inquired. "Ye shall not be unpunished." Jeremiah 25:29. {PK 450.1} 
Even these words were received with mocking derision. "The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth," declared the impenitent. But through Ezekiel this denial of the sure word of prophecy was sternly rebuked. "Tell them," the Lord declared, "I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I am the Lord: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord God. {PK 450.2} 
"Again," testifies Ezekiel, "the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; There shall none of My words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God." Ezekiel 12:22-28. {PK 450.3} 
Foremost among those who were rapidly leading the nation to ruin was Zedekiah their king. Forsaking utterly the counsels of the Lord as given through the prophets, forgetting the debt of gratitude he owed Nebuchadnezzar, 
violating his solemn oath of allegiance taken in the name of the Lord God of Israel, Judah's king rebelled against the prophets, against his benefactor, and against his God. In the vanity of his own wisdom he turned for help to the ancient enemy of Israel's prosperity, "sending his ambassadors into Egypt, that they might give him horses and much people." {PK
450.4}

GSLL-I have no problem with the quotes given (PK p. 448-450) However if we pay close attention she does not mention anywhere of Ezekiel 9. She goes into Ezek. 8, yes, but that isn't the reference I asked for. Do you have any quotes giving the ref. of Ezekiel 9 to the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc.?

Of course the prophets had real time messages to give the people, and these quotes I believe were truth spoken HOWEVER no where does she reference the specific quotes from chapter 9 of Ezekiel.

Now, we can ask why not? It's because she, being led by Inspiration was not to mention it as she would do so later in other writings. And ofcourse we know the verses (MR, vol. 1, p.260 and 1888 Materials, p.1363 and elsewhere).

To play the devil's advocate, even if she was meaning those quotes pertaining to Ezekiel 9, she would be incorrect because she states the warning Ezekiel was to give was the “day of doom” to come on the "kingdom of Judah".

GSLL- Can you address this question? ( this was skipped)
2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9?

GSLL- 2)Further how could the “Man in linen” literally go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the sighing and crying ones?

Ded-The same way the seal of God is put on God's people in the time of the end. It's not a literal mark painted on people's foreheads.

The problem is that Houteff makes symbols literal, instead of recognizing that symbols remain symbolic but represent something literal. 

GSLL-Houteff never taught that the vision was anything other than what SOP taught-- to be ”fulfilled to the very letter”.

GSLL-- --3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

Ded--Are the three angels' messages proclaimed by three literal angels flying in the heavens, or do they represent people?

GSLL- I find this analogy not accurate. We can't compare the 3 angels messages with the “literally fulfilled to the letter” Ezek. 9. And to be frank, you are juxtaposing humans for angels as shown below.

“ Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them.  (Test. For the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

Dedication --"And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar."

Seems to be saying that these are men.
"Angels" in that they are messengers of Gods' wrath, but men none the less. Even the "man in linen" is pictured as a man, Christ in His human form as priest, seeking to save all who are true.

The north --
Most of Israel's enemies descended from the north.
Jerusalem was besieged for a year and half, reducing the people to horrible hunger before they breached the wall.

They came from the way of the higher gate, this is the eastern gate called the higher or upper gate, because it was above the court of the Israelites. see 2 Kings 15:35; 

This gate is toward the north: where were the image of jealousy, and the women weeping for Tammuz, and other idolatrous practices were committed. There they entered every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; as ordered. (Soldiers)

GSLL--“Today as in the past, some will be led to form new theories and to deny the truths upon which the Spirit of God has placed His approval.” {1SAT 386.2} [/i]

The illuminating quote below effectively corrects your false assumptions.

“He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption (Letter 126, 1898).”4BC 1161.4

One thing to point out is that an angel can be addressed as a “man” in Scripture.

“So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. “ (Gen.32:24)

 "And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision." (Dan. 8:16)

"while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering." (Dan. 9:21)

- while I appreciate your thoughts on the interpretations you present , as shown you must come over to the truth on your false assumptions. Men in this vision are clearly angels. Therefore the Babylonian application cannot be a true application unless, as I said we are “fast and loose” with the facts.

Both EGW and Houteff taught that the work of slaughter in Ezek. 9 is done by ANGELS of God NOT humans (man).


Lastly, here are some Scriptures and
EGW quotes showing a literal church purification:

The Lord will work to purify His church. I tell you in truth, the Lord is about to turn and overturn in the institutions called by His name. Just how soon this refining process will begin I cannot say, but it will not be long deferred. He whose fan is in His hand will cleanse His temple of its moral defilement. He will thoroughly purge His floor.--Lt 4, 1895. {PM 170.2}

“Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. “ (Isaiah 52:1)

"God has not changed toward His faithful servants who are keeping their garments spotless. But many are crying, "Peace and Safety," while sudden destruction is coming upon them..When purification shall take place in our ranks, we shall no longer rest at ease, boasting of being
rich and increased with goods, in need of nothing." (Testimonies, vol. 8, p.250)

“ Our Lord has His fan in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor. In the coming day He will discern "between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." {5T 227.2}

“Ezekiel 9:3-6. Notice particularly [that] the sighing and crying ones are alone marked. Those who have engaged in afflicting their souls before God are especially remembered of Him, and the angel is bidden to place a mark upon them.” (MR, vol. 18, p.370)

And what and where is this crying and sighing she mentions about?
She answers-- “. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the church.” (Test. For the Church, vol. 3, p.267)


Counsel –

“ We may lose the footsteps of God and follow our own bewilderment, and say, “Thy judgments are not known; but if the heart is loyal to God everything will be made plain.” (test. To Ministers, p.432)



those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit, Christ's lessons appear complete in their harmony with His mission of love. Those who are partakers of the divine nature, will be melted into tenderness when the Spirit sends conviction of sin. They will see the great work that must be done for the soul before it is prepared to dwell in the presence of God. They will not be too self-sufficient to receive correction.”(ST, May 15, 1901)

Israel, according to scripture are those who are in Christ and walking in His paths of righteousness. There is no problem with EGW referring to Sabbath keeping Christians as Israel.
But the quote does not say the Seventh-day Adventist CHURCH is Israel.

In fact it implies the opposite. Israel are the "true worshippers" while a great many who are not "true worshippers" have come in to "to prove a scourge to our people".

Also notice a couple paragraphs further down HOW the church will be purified. (in the same context)



The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God). 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

GSLL-- Those quotes are true, however there must and always has been a distinction as a “body of” God's people—a church in other words.

Where does it say the CHURCH is Israel.
True, God called out a people, the Seventh-day Adventists to be His messengers to proclaim the three angels messages, but does that limit the word ISRAEL to them.
True Israel will also keep all 10 of Gods commandments, including the 4th.

But that does not make the institutional church Israel, it simply means people who genuinely accepted Christ and keep His commandments are true Israel.






APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

The test (Sunday vs Saturday) obviously affects Sabbath keepers, (ie Seventh-day Adventists) and no you have not explained it, only tried to rationalize the clear statements away.
 
For those apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists, professing belief in the third angels message, before the Sunday laws were enforced,
WHEN the test comes they LEAVE
and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren". 





GSLL- “house of Israel”--12 tribes. ONLY the house of Judah could have been receivers of his message.

But the text doesn't say the message was given to the House of Israel.




Its clearly saying the disaster fell on the CITY of Jerusalem, on the residue of the house of Israel.

They had been spared when the 10 tribes fell but had not learned anything from that but followed in her evil ways. Jeremiah 3 explains it -- the destruction of the residue (what was left) of Israel was the result of the accumulated sins of Israel of both houses.


GLL wrote: So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “house of Israel and Judah”, is.

Right -- and now we KNOW that Ezekiel nine is about the city of Jerusalem and RESIDUE of Israel.

Not on the ten tribes that had already been conquered.


GSLL-I have no problem with the quotes given (PK p. 448-450) However if we pay close attention she does not mention anywhere of Ezekiel 9. She goes into Ezek. 8, yes, but that isn't the reference I asked for. Do you have any quotes giving the ref. of Ezekiel 9 to the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc.?

She quotes quite a few verses from Ezekiel (8 and 12) in her description of the fall of Jerusalem. Just because she does not quote every verse does not mean Ezekiel 9 isn't included. After all Ezekiel 9 itself specifically mentions the destruction of the city of Jerusalem.



GLL wrote; To play the devil's advocate, even if she was meaning those quotes pertaining to Ezekiel 9, she would be incorrect because she states the warning Ezekiel was to give was the “day of doom” to come on the "kingdom of Judah".

But Ezekiel 9 itself says it was to fall upon the city of Jerusalem -- the RESIDUE of the house of Israel, which of course was the southern kingdom of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, Levi)
-- I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9:8


GSLL- Can you address this question? ( this was skipped)
2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9?

Where does it say all the wicked are destroyed. When they are can only project into the situation at Christs second coming, for that is the only time when all living wicked will die.

Not all wicked died in Ezekiels time, and most certainly all wicked will not die before probation closes or even before Christs second coming.




The problem is that Houteff makes symbols literal, instead of recognizing that symbols remain symbolic but represent something literal. 

GSLL-Houteff never taught that the vision was anything other than what SOP taught-- to be ”fulfilled to the very letter”.

The VERY letter is talking about a city called Jerusalem, with gates and a sanctuary with a court around it. It is talking about a man carrying an inkhorn and placing a mark on people. It is talking about six men with weapons, -- there is nothing about six angels in chapter nine.




GSLL-- --3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

It says nothing in the vision of six ANGELS from the upper gate in Ezekiels vision. It says six men.

You are probably referring to TM 431-432, but EGW isn't specifically saying that the six men are angels, she quotes Ezekiel 9 in connection with the angels pouring out the vials of the plagues.



GSLL- I find this analogy not accurate. We can't compare the 3 angels (flying in the midst of heaven) giving the messages with the “literally fulfilled to the letter” Ezek. 9. And to be frank, you are juxtaposing humans for angels as shown below.

“ Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them.  (Test. For the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

But when IS that time
The same writer tells us when that time is -- during the seventh plague see GC 656



GLL quotes “He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

Dedication quotes the next paragraph:
As I mentioned earlier she says the future fulfilment is connected to the last plagues.


The purification of the church will take place --
The church will be sifted by trials when it is no longer popular to be a Sabbath keeping Christian.

I could quote a multitude of passages of trials refining and sifting but its time to quite.
Those who are not in earnest in their commitment to Christ and truth will LEAVE (they may take whole institutions and congregations and church buildings with them) they will renounce the Sabbath etc, etc, it will appear that the original Seventh-day Adventist church is collapsing.

Few men in leadership now will be still leading then, they will go renouncing the truth.
But the faithful will rally, the church will remain a purified church upon which the Holy Spirit falls and they witness mightily for Him in spite of severe oppression.

In fact it is the oppression that makes their witness front page news all over the world, and the message will bring the whole world to decision.

But the oppressors will do their utmost to stop it.
The plagues only infuriate them more.
But in the end God reveals Himself and His down trodden law. Delivering His people. THEN Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled with a vengeance and it wont be angels, it will be people in agony wrecking vengeance upon those who deceived them.

Once again, will review and comment this weekend (seems the only time I got now days :-)

DED- Israel, according to scripture are those who are in Christ and walking in His paths of righteousness. There is no problem with EGW referring to Sabbath keeping Christians as Israel.
But the quote does not say the Seventh-day Adventist CHURCH is Israel.

In fact it implies the opposite. Israel are the "true worshippers" while a great many who are not "true worshippers" have come in to "to prove a scourge to our people".

GSLL- “In these days He has instituted no new plan to preserve the purity of His people. As of old, He entreats the erring ones who profess His name to repent and turn from their evil ways. Now, as then, by the mouth of His chosen servants He predicts the dangers before them. He sounds the note of warning and reproves sin just as faithfully as in the days of Jeremiah. But the Israel of our time have the same temptations to scorn reproof and hate counsel as had ancient Israel. They too often turn a deaf ear to the words that God has given His servants for the benefit of those who profess the truth. Though the Lord in mercy withholds for a time the retribution of their sin, as in the days of Jeremiah, He will not always stay His hand, but will visit iniquity with righteous judgment.”(Testimonies, vol. 4, p.165)

SDA people = Israel of our time (today). Also note that the context is that she is talking to us—Seventh Day Adventists.Check it yourself.

“In the days of Samuel, Israel thought that the presence of the ark containing the commandments of God would gain them the victory over the Philistines, whether or not they repented of their wicked works. Just so, in Jeremiah's time, the Jews believed that the strict observance of the divinely appointed services of the temple would preserve them from the just punishment of their evil course.

The same danger exists today among the people who profess to be the depositaries of God's law. They are too apt to flatter themselves that the regard in which they hold the commandments will preserve them from the power of divine justice. They refuse to be reproved for evil, and charge God's servants with being too zealous in putting sin out of the camp.
A sin-hating God calls upon those who profess to keep His law to depart from all iniquity. Neglect to repent and obey His word will bring as serious consequences upon God's people today as did the same sin upon ancient Israel.

There is a limit beyond which He will no longer delay His judgments. The desolation of Jerusalem stands as a solemn warning before the eyes of modern Israel, that the corrections given through His chosen instruments cannot be disregarded with impunity.”(Ibid, p.166)

Who is this she is speaking of “depositories of God's law”? Of course it's the SDA people, who are known collectively as the SDA church. Then what does she call us? Modern Israel. The implications are clear, the descriptions are plain.Check the context here as well.

*******************

DED- Quote:
" The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {5T 81.1} 

GSLL- Actually found a direct quote from brother Houteff that addresses this--( By the way the SDA doubters sent him over 160 questions which he addressed over 20 years you may want to review as many of your same questions are addressed.
http://www.shepherds-rod.org/answerers/index%20answerer.html

“The SRod does not claim that all those professing to be S.D.A's "who have step by step yielded to worldly demands," will fall under the slaughter weapons of Ezekiel's vision, but rather that every active member who does not receive the "mark" (or seal of Eze. 9), excluding those who have departed from the organized work but who yet claim to be Seventh-day Adventists -- a class at the present time numbering thousands.

   According to Vol. 5, p. 81 some of those who are independent of the organization but still claim to be S.D.A's will not "subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death," but will "slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings." T.M. 112. (Symb.Code, Vol. 1, no.1, p.5)

I would add that though it was a sizable number back in brother Houteff's day, today, as mentioned with the movements to get out and be separate yet still call themselves SDA ( such as SDA Reformists, etc.) that number is indeed many more thousands.
“The test will come to every soul.” We can only assume the words “every soul” means those alive at that time. Of course this does not preclude a “prior” church purification before this test. There is no doubt the Sunday law will cause a world shaking and the “gold will be separated from the dross in the church.” But this "world" shaking is to FOLLOW the Ezek. 9 church judgment > more on this further down.

********************

DED- The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God). 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

GSLL- We have to be careful not to infer an incorrect premise, that just like Tony Palmer said in the infamous video with the pope recently, “we're all one with Christ..” His “Israel of today” cannot be connected and united as a church body with the world's churches! This again, is why He must have a “chosen people”, a “repairer of the breach”, a “holy nation”, a “peculiar people” all of which described “Israel” of old and as we've just read above—describes “Israel of today.” A church who PROFESSES to keep the Commandments of God. Notice the word “professes”, implying that not all within our church are ”doers” but rather “professors” as in some claiming to but not doing it.


So, that quote is true, however there has always been a distinction as a “body of” God's people—a church in other words, and this is true today. That church is the SDA church.

********************

DED-Where does it say the CHURCH is Israel.

GSLL- True, it doesn't say the SDA “Church” is the Israel of today. But anyone who has reasoning powers can see that the Seventh Day Adventists are a people who are known as a “Church body” a church structure by it's very definition. The implication is clear I believe.

*******************

DED- APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

For those apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists, professing belief in the third angels message, before the Sunday laws were enforced, 
WHEN the test comes they LEAVE and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren". 

Quote:
EGW
"As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves....a large class who haveprofessed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth,abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren.When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them." {GC88 608.1}

GSLL- I do not dispute this statement, however, there is an answer that you are not considering here. Allow me to point it out, statement by statement.

1) “As defenders of the truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath..” These will certainly be the ones called out by the 144,000. Page 603 clearly shows that people are being told to 'come out of her My people”. So in context we see that the “defenders” are the ones who decide to take the stand with the Sabbath keepers and come out of the Sunday churches.

2) “A large class who have professed faith in the Third angel's message..abandon their position and join ranks of the opposition.”

As mentioned already there are literally many, many thousands (Reform movement, stay at home SDA (non-active members), etc. who have not been “obedient” (remaining within the church as SOP admonishes us) and as such will have no problem “abandoning their position” as Sabbath keeping Adventists. Right now many of these are SDA in name only, either removed from or dormat on the books. Remember the position of the Srod as stated above.”excluding those who have departed from the organized work but who yet claim to be Seventh-day Adventists..”

3) “when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy way.” Of course these described SDA (in name only) will have no problem. And as stated be able to accuse their old brethren as they know well the doctrines and beliefs.

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GSLL- “house of Israel”--12 tribes. ONLY the house of Judah could have been receivers of his message.

DED- But the text doesn't say the message was given to the House of Israel.
Quote:
9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 
9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 
9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah [is] exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 



DED- Its clearly saying the disaster fell on the CITY of Jerusalem, on the residue of the house of Israel. 

GSLL- Although I could spend time with this, this point is now mute as we show how your applying Ezek. 9 to the invasion cannot be supported by the facts.

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GLL wrote: So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “house of Israel and Judah”, is.

DED- Right -- and now we KNOW that Ezekiel nine is about the city of Jerusalem and RESIDUE of Israel.

GSLL- Some problems with that statement. First EGW said “WILL BE FULFILLED TO THE VERY LETTER.” You are ignoring this plain declaration. Instead you are claiming “will be” means “had been” by inferring that the quote has it's first and primal application in the Babylon invasion. Therefore you attempt to throw in the “past” events and make them substitute for her “will be” application. More addressed
below.

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GSLL-I have no problem with the quotes given (PK p. 448-450) However if we pay close attention she does not mention anywhere of Ezekiel 9. She goes into Ezek. 8, yes, but that isn't the reference I asked for. Do you have any quotes giving the ref. of Ezekiel 9 to the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc.?

DED- She quotes quite a few verses from Ezekiel (8 and 12) in her description of the fall of Jerusalem. Just because she does not quote every verse does not mean Ezekiel 9 isn't included. After all Ezekiel 9 itself specifically mentions the destruction of the city of Jerusalem.

GSLL- This is nothing more than “private interpretation” See
(2 Peter 1:20). Private interjection is just that—private. Ezekiel 9 is NOT referenced in the quotes you gave and therefore we must remain steadfast that EGW NEVER gives Ezekiel 9 as reference to the Babylon invasion.Her quote about Ezekiel 8 goes into "why" they were deserving of His wrath but not "how" He executes it.

GSLL-Again, the “will be” application(s) is future tense so we cannot juxtapose what she says to past events as we cannot provide ANY reference from her pen saying Ezek. 9 was the Babylonian invasion. In hindsight I should have nipped this error in the bud (the past fulfillment of Ezek.9), instead of getting into a dialogue over a false scenario (and unsupported) you have attempted to promote.

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GSLL- Can you address this question? ( this was skipped)
2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9?

DED- Where does it say all the wicked are destroyed.

GSLL- In hindsight you are correct here, this question was mis-applied .But we cannot spend our time applying Ezek. 9 to the invasion due to the facts as shown. The future application (s) are what concerns us.

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DED- The VERY letter is talking about a city called Jerusalem, with gates and a sanctuary with a court around it. It is talking about a man carrying an inkhorn and placing a mark on people. It is talking about six men with weapons, -- there is nothing about six angels in chapter nine.

GSLL-- At the risk of being redundant, again you are supposing that she was quoting “to the very letter” meaning she was going backwards and the “will be” is describing past events. Nonsensical. Further you say it's about literal six men. Even if we were to believe your story of Ezek. 9 being the Babylonian invasion, there were not just “six men” who destroyed the city. Also there was not a literal man in linen going around marking men to be saved, etc.

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GSLL quoted--“ Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them.  (Test. For the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

DED- But when IS that time
The same writer tells us when that time is -- during the seventh plague see GC 656

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GLL quotes “He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

GSLL- Again, I am really amazed here. Just how do you fail to see that this reference ESTABLISHES the issue?? Notice she first says “To His ANGELS He gives the commission to execute HIS judgments. Then look at what judgments is she talking about? Ezekiel 9! How can you miss this ?? NO “man” has EVER been commissioned to fulfill Ezekiel 9 work past or future.

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Dedication quotes the next paragraph:
Quote:
The words will soon be spoken, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." One of the ministers of vengeance declares. "And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." {TM 432.1}

DED- As I mentioned earlier she says the future fulfilment is connected to the last plagues.

GSLL--I have already address how this must be a secondary application due to many facts.

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“The church may appear as about to fall, but does not. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.” (2 selected Messages p.380)

“While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven.. there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people on earth. (GC p.425)
Notice the work of purification is not the disobeying or obeying any “laws' but of “putting away of sins”. THIS results in the purification. Scripture explains this-

“And it shall come to pass, that he that is LEFT IN ZION, and he that remainth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is WRITTEN AMONG THE LIVING in Jerusalem. WHEN the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst therof by the spirit of JUDGMENT, and the spirit of burning.” (Isaiah 4:3,4)

GSLL-The above shows why we should clearly understand today's meanings of "Jerusalem" "Israel" "Judah" etc.


In speaking to OUR people the SDA church she says, “The destroying angel is soon to go forth again, not to destroy the first-born alone[as of Egypt] but to slay utterly old and young, both men, women and little children who have not the mark..” (RH, Sept. 19. 1854)(Test. for the Church, vol. 5, p.505)

“..a pure and holy God is “whetting his sword in heaven to cut down” those who do not sigh and cry. “Oh that every lukewarm professor could realize the CLEAN WORK that God is about to make among his professed people.” (Test. For the Church, vol.1, p.190)

Where are the lukewarm people described in the Bible and SOP? The Laodicean church--the SDA church!(Rev. 3, and many SOP quotes) The clean work goes through out our own churches.

No doubt a cleansing is coming are we ready??? Are our garments clean and spotless?

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DED- But in the end God reveals Himself and His down trodden law. Delivering His people. THEN Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled with a vengeance and it wont be angels, it will be people in agony wrecking vengeance upon those who deceived them.


GSLL--You have show absolutely no proof from Scripture or SOP that these”men” will be literal men doing the slaying .Only private interpretations. Angels are commissioned by the LORD to do this work. And my quotes are "BACKED UP"

Counsel--

Oh, why will men be hindrances, when they might be helps? Why will they block the wheels, when they might push with marked success? Why will they rob their own soul of good and deprive others of blessing that might come through them? These rejecters of light will remain barren deserts, where no refreshing, healing waters flow and their ministrations as barren of moisture as were the hill of Gilboa, where there was neither dew nor rain. They are not clothed with divine unction and convey no blessings to others. They might humble their hearts and confess their wrongs, and break Satan's hold upon them.” (Test. To Ministers, p.413)

"The ways of Inspiration are constant, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Questions concerning revealed truth must therefore be answered in the same way today as they were in John’s time. And thus now as then, the critical, the skeptical, and the doubting will find many hooks upon which to hang their doubts. But likewise now as then, the doubters will be taken in their own craftiness." (The Answerer, vol. 1, question 3)

Jumping in to say that dedication is away for a couple of weeks.