|
Forums118
Topics9,217
Posts195,976
Members1,324
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
5 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, Kevin H, 2 invisible),
2,656
guests, and 7
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16373
01/21/06 02:39 PM
01/21/06 02:39 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
When I was in college I took a course called ‘Christian Belief’s’. One of the points it brought out was that the covenant of God with ancient and modern Israel is quite different from modern contracts in that under an ordinary modern contract the two parties are exchanging services or good on an equal footing. In contrast, under the covenant, God is asking for fidelity and loyalty in a marriage-like relationship based on the salvation that He has abundantly already supplied. In the following quotes, all from Deuteronomy, the key factor in the salvation of literal Israel is the fact that God has chosen them, not arbitrarily, but because He loved them. God’s election is an act of love. quote:
4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, [even] you above all people, as [it is] this day.
10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.
Deuteronomy
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16374
01/28/06 05:44 AM
01/28/06 05:44 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Something made me think of this quote, in relation to this topic. I can't remember it is was already posted in this topic or not (might be a repeat). Anyway, I thought of it, so thought I would post it. quote:
All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. He does not make man spiritually blind. God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. But He does not force man to receive truth. He leaves him free to choose the good or to choose the evil. If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest (MS 126, 1901 - Emphasis mine).
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16375
03/17/06 11:54 AM
03/17/06 11:54 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
God has always chosen those who are saved. You say God chooses everyone, but is that a reasonable interpretation of the texts from Deuteronomy in my last post? Is that a fair interpretation of Christ's statements like 'my sheep [those that belong to Christ] hear my voice', or, 'A man can have nothing unless it is given to him by God' or, 'You did not choose me but I chose you'. IMO, in order to synthesize your quote with Deuteronomy and Christ's statements and the statements of Paul and John, we need to let both perspectives to be true and look for the harmony.
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16376
03/17/06 05:02 PM
03/17/06 05:02 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
From a previous post of mine:
------------------------------------------------
quote:Scripture teaches that all are drawn and enlightened. But not all are chosen. Christ taught that it is the Father who ultimately takes credit for the saved whom He gives to Christ. He does not assign any credit to those who respond favourably.
It appears to me you are using the term "chosen" in a way which was not intended. Please consider the following:
quote:The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. Christ says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16) (1SM 347).
God chose us because if He hadn't, we would have been lost. The emphasis of these texts in Scripture is that our being saved is due to God's grace, not to our own initiative. It's not saying that God arbitrarily chooses some and not others.
Please note the sentence marked in bold. This explains the intent of "chosen" very clearly, I believe.
Indeed, the fact that God draws all (as you have brought out) shows that all are chosen (in the sense of the word "chosen" that you are using).
------------------------------------------------
"Chosen" can mean different things depending on the context. God is not willing that any should perish. He draws all to Himself. Some refuse; these are rejected. Some respond; these are chosen. This is one sense of the word "chosen".
Another sense would be in the sense of initiation. In this sense God chooses all.
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16377
03/17/06 06:23 PM
03/17/06 06:23 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
It doesn't make sense to me to say God chooses to save everyone unless we qualify it by adding God chooses to save everyone who chooses to be saved.
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16378
03/17/06 08:30 PM
03/17/06 08:30 PM
|
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
|
|
Mark
How does your version of the elect compare with the one Calvin the reformator had?
/Thomas
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16379
03/18/06 01:32 AM
03/18/06 01:32 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
quote:
Mark:
God has always chosen those who are saved. You say God chooses everyone, but is that a reasonable interpretation of the texts from Deuteronomy in my last post?
Mark it should be evident that the discourse in Deuteronomy does not have to do with salvation or eternal life, but with God’s choice of Israel for a particular purpose. Nevertheless God did choose them. The question is how is it that most of the chosen and elect people did not fulfil their calling?
quote:
Is that a fair interpretation of Christ's statements like 'my sheep [those that belong to Christ] hear my voice',
“My sheep” speaks of those who listen, believe and obey; therefore they are his sheep. They are his sheep because they believe. It is evident that many were chosen or elected first and yet did not listen, believe and obey. Just because one is chosen does not mean they are his sheep.
quote:
or, 'A man can have nothing unless it is given to him by God' or,
But of course, a man can have nothing unless it is given to him by God. But God has given to all men.
- Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him ...
There is a that; The only way a man can receive anything from God is if they listen, believe, and obey. If a man will do his will he shall know.
quote:
'You did not choose me but I chose you'.
That is true. It is not like we have elected him to lead us (like we elect a prime minister or president), but that He has called us out to follow him. Salvation is not of our engineering and design; it is not our program. It is God’s choice for man, his plan and purpose and design; his choice for us.
quote:
IMO, in order to synthesize your quote with Deuteronomy and Christ's statements and the statements of Paul and John, we need to let both perspectives to be true and look for the harmony.
The harmony is: the simple reality that as it was in Deuteronomy that God “chose” or “elected” Israel for a purpose, and yet they did not (most of them did not) fulfill their election purpose; many of the chosen ones did not fulfill their calling. And at the same time there were those who were not chosen and elected who did become God’s people and fulfilled the purpose.
- Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
The harmony is in that God chose and purposed that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: sons and daughters of the most high. God never had another purpose. But not all are willing to answer the call or meet his choice.
- Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16380
03/18/06 03:18 PM
03/18/06 03:18 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Thomas, I don't actually know much about what Calvin taught. I know a little about Calvinism as it's taught today and there may or may not be a big difference between the two. Regarding modern Calvinism, I disagree with 'Irresistible Grace'. If I remember right, modern Calvinists also teach 'once saved always saved', although I'm not sure on that one. I think modern Calvinists also may teach the doctrine of 'original sin' and I disagree with that too. What I'm saying is "don't throw out the concept of 'predestined' and 'election' because of other equally valid doctrines like the role of the will, the human choice, our duty to respond to the gospel invitation, etc". John, Israel was the visible church in its day. God chose it to fulfil that purpose, to represent Him in the world, but, was it God's purpose that caused Him to choose Israel, or was it God's choosing Israel that qualified them to fulfil His purpose? It was the latter wasn't it? Israel is a type of the invisible church - those who are truly saved. All of the saints in this group are 'elect', and 'predestined'. Below is a text from Amos. Notice that God says He only 'knows' Israel of all the nations. Didn't God know all about the other nations? He did. But He 'knew' Israel in a special, unique sense. They were His chosen bride. And yet, they were an illustration of the salvation covenant between Christ and the invisible church. quote:
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:2
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16381
03/18/06 10:12 PM
03/18/06 10:12 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
quote:
John, Israel was the visible church in its day. God chose it to fulfil that purpose, to represent Him in the world, but, was it God's purpose that caused Him to choose Israel, or was it God's choosing Israel that qualified them to fulfil His purpose? It was the latter wasn't it? Israel is a type of the invisible church - those who are truly saved. All of the saints in this group are 'elect', and 'predestined'.
That is the point I brought out! That even though God did choose them, they (most of them) did not fulfill his purpose. The point about God choosing does not establish that the chosen ones fulfill his purpose. In the same manner the point that God chose and predestined everyone to be saved and become the children of God does not mean that all will accept or fulfill his will.
|
|
|
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16382
03/20/06 11:55 PM
03/20/06 11:55 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
This is where we differ: I say that the election and predestination only apply to the saints, not to Israel of the flesh but s p i r i t u a l Israel. Most of you here say everyone is elected and predestined. So we read the passages differently.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
