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Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #163985
04/04/14 05:59 PM
04/04/14 05:59 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Paul is referring to symbolisms of the old covenant. If the sprinkling mentioned here, besides that done with the ashes of a heifer, refers also to the sprinkling of blood, Paul probably is referring to the sprinkling of people with blood (see v. 19, 20 of the same chapter). However, even if he was referring to the sprinkling of blood in the sanctuary, it should be remembered that, through the sacrifice and all that it involved, the person was purified because his/her sin was taken away.
As I said in my last post, the fact that, in the sanctuary of the old covenant, the blood of the victim was sprinkled before God for the forgiveness of the sinner, means that today Christ presents His blood (sacrifice) before God as a reason why the sinner should be forgiven.

I think the symbolism is clear.


Well, it's not really clear to you.

Here is the conclusion Paul reaches where he takes the symbolism of SPRINKLING even further: "Let us draw near," he says, "with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Heb. 10:22)

In the quote I offered previously, he said, "... how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb. 9:15)

In other words, the "blood of Christ" does something remarkable to the believer. It is SPRINKLED on him and cleanses his conscience. Paul says our hearts are "sprinkled from an evil conscience" and again, "our conscience is cleansed from dead works" to serve the Living God.

There is a parallel scripture to this in John 7:37-39. "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." Now look what John interprets this to mean: "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

In short, "the sprinkling of the blood of Christ in the temple of heaven" is the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer in the Church so that he is born again of that Spirit, having received Divine forgiveness. The temple of God is the Church, and under the old covenant was symbolic of the congregation of Israel. There is no real temple in heaven.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #163987
04/04/14 06:25 PM
04/04/14 06:25 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Well, it's not really clear to you.
The fact that the believer is cleansed from sin results from Christ's work in the sanctuary of heaven.

Heb 8:4,5 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things.

Heb 9:23,24 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #163988
04/04/14 07:10 PM
04/04/14 07:10 PM
L
LUIS  Offline
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Posts: 3
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I don´t see how that verse is relevant to this discussion since it is referring to "unintentional sins" of the priest and obviously that cannot describe Jesus’ daily work on the sanctuary.

Welcome, Luis.
Well, first let me make clear that there was no atonement specified in the law for "intentional" sins (that is, willful sins), for which the penalty was death. Only "unintentional" sins could be atoned for.
Second, that form of atonement (in which the blood was brought within the sanctuary) was specified for the sins of priests and for the sins of the whole congregation of Israel (Lev. 4:13ff). In the case of the common sinner, the blood wasn't brought within the sanctuary, but the priest ate the flesh of the sacrifice (Lev 6:25, 26; 7:7), symbolically taking the sins of the person upon himself, as if they were his own (Lev 10:17). And, again, in the atonement for his own sins, the blood was taken inside the sanctuary.


Hello Rosangela,

You say that "there was no atonement specified in the law for "intentional" sins" and define "intentional" as "willful sins".

I believe that there was an there is an atonement for "intentional" sins; sins like those commited by David when he very "intentionally" took someone elses wife and later (and very "intentionally") ordered the murder of her husband.

Of course, the law was clear on the punishment for adultery:

Lev 20:10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

BTW, I also believe there is no atonement for some sins:

Mat 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

So here are some questions:

1. Were David's sins atoned?
2. If they were, how were they atoned?
3. Is Lev 20:10 implying a lack of atonement or simply a death sentence as in the case with the thief on the cross who, although received salvation, was punished by death?


Blessings and thanks for the welcome!

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #163989
04/04/14 08:48 PM
04/04/14 08:48 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
The fact that the believer is cleansed from sin results from Christ's work in the sanctuary of heaven.

Heb 8:4,5 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things.

Heb 9:23,24 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


The heavenly things of which he speaks is NOT IN HEAVEN but OF HEAVEN. If you were born again, it is your conscience that was cleansed from evil works to serve God.

Paul quoting Jeremiah said in Heb. 8:10-12, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." (cf. 1 Pet. 2:4-5)

Have you not read where Jesus says to the paralytic in Mat. 9, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you"? And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!” But Jesus said, "that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins — then He said to the paralytic - Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house. And he arose and departed to his house."

We are the temple of God which was cleansed and made whole. We who were born again are OF HEAVEN, recipients of the gift of the rejuvenating Holy Spirit (the sprinkled "blood of Christ"). There is NOTHING in the real heaven that needs cleansing, even in the most remote of senses.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #163992
04/04/14 10:09 PM
04/04/14 10:09 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."

So Christ did not enter "into heaven", but into the church... And "heaven itself" means the church...

James, do you expect me to believe that?

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: LUIS] #163993
04/04/14 10:24 PM
04/04/14 10:24 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
1. Were David's sins atoned?

Not by the law. There was no sacrifice he could bring to atone for his sins.

Quote:
2. If they were, how were they atoned?

They were atoned by Christ's sacrifice, that is, they were atoned under the promise of the new covenant, not under the dispositions of the old covenant. It's good to remember that the old covenant was just a teaching tool; it was not a covenant of grace and it could not provide salvation.

Quote:
3. Is Lev 20:10 implying a lack of atonement or simply a death sentence as in the case with the thief on the cross who, although received salvation, was punished by death?

The thief on the cross died, not because he was being punished by God, but because he was being punished by the romans; the death penalty under the old covenant, however, was instituted by God.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #163996
04/05/14 01:25 AM
04/05/14 01:25 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
It is very true that Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary has a very important counterpart with His people on earth.

It is also very true that Christ sends His Holy Spirit to make effective in the lives of His people the provisions He has made for their redemption and cleansing.

But there is more -- it's not just about us.

Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

And yes there is a sanctuary in heaven where the sin problem is dealt with -- legally and spiritually.


Quote:
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:


It is from this temple in heaven that angels of judgment are sent forth.
Quote:

Rev. 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues,
16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


The ministry in the temple in heaven deals with the sin problem.

In that temple, not only is salvation's benefits (the blood and merits of Christ) applied to all who will respond to His Spirit and leading, there is also a thorough investigation into who will inherit eternal life and who will not.

Quote:
Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Those whose sins were not transferred and covered by Christ's blood (forgiven through Christ's death) will have their names blotted out of those books.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

That is a very important part of Revelation for the saved will have their names inscribed in the lamb's book of life, while those whose names are not registered there, are worshipping at the wrong shrine and face destruction.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164003
04/05/14 03:46 AM
04/05/14 03:46 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."
So Christ did not enter "into heaven", but into the church... And "heaven itself" means the church...
James, do you expect me to believe that?

There is a difference between "into heaven" and "of heavenly things". This is the distinction made in Heb. 3: "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house WE are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb. 3:4-6)

This Jesus also said in John 17, while praying for his disciples, "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (v. 16-17)

In other words, Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and gave us the Holy Spirit, thus cleansing us of all unrighteousness here on earth. We are OF heaven (heavenly things, as it were) yet not IN heaven. Only He is IN heaven. There is NOTHING that needs cleansing IN heaven, even in the most remote of senses! (Rev. 22:14-15)

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164004
04/05/14 04:00 AM
04/05/14 04:00 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
It is very true that Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary has a very important counterpart with His people on earth.

It is also very true that Christ sends His Holy Spirit to make effective in the lives of His people the provisions He has made for their redemption and cleansing ....


Everything else you said beyond that point is a result of misguidance and misunderstanding. WE are the temple of God that was cleansed. The temple of God means the Church under the New Covenant and the Congregation of Israel under the OLD. It is, and was always, symbolic of the people of God HERE ON EARTH in both ages.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164007
04/05/14 01:13 PM
04/05/14 01:13 PM
L
LUIS  Offline
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New Member (Starting to Post)
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
1. Were David's sins atoned?

Not by the law. There was no sacrifice he could bring to atone for his sins.

Quote:
2. If they were, how were they atoned?

They were atoned by Christ's sacrifice, that is, they were atoned under the promise of the new covenant, not under the dispositions of the old covenant. It's good to remember that the old covenant was just a teaching tool; it was not a covenant of grace and it could not provide salvation.

Quote:
3. Is Lev 20:10 implying a lack of atonement or simply a death sentence as in the case with the thief on the cross who, although received salvation, was punished by death?

The thief on the cross died, not because he was being punished by God, but because he was being punished by the romans; the death penalty under the old covenant, however, was instituted by God.


1 & 2. Exactly, everyone, from Adam to the last person saved will be atoned by Jesus' sacrifice.

3. The purpose of the question was not to find out who punished the thief on the cross (although Romans 13:1-5 tells me something a bit different than your answer); the purpose is to find out if Lev 20:10 teaches us that sins like adultery are not atoned. Why the question? Because of something you stated and has been in my mind for a long time:

"there was no atonement specified in the law for 'intentional' sins"

If, as you stated and I also believe, "It's good to remember that the old covenant was just a teaching tool", what can we learn from the fact that in the law, there was no atonement speccified for 'intentional' sins?

Blessings.

Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

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