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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16393
07/02/06 06:49 AM
07/02/06 06:49 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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My understanding is that the highest power of man is the will. That is, the will is the governing power of the nature of man, bringing all other faculties under its sway. I don't even know what it would mean to say that the spirit governs the will, if this is the idea. Quote:
Paul, in Romans 7; 14-25 establishes and makes that distinction by telling us that he served the law of God with his mind, but was still under the law of sin death because he did not yet discover the way of the spirit which he unveils in Romans 8.
I understand this to be the way of the Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of man. Paul is Romans 8 is contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, not the flesh with the spirit, is my understanding of Romans 8.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16394
07/02/06 06:57 AM
07/02/06 06:57 AM
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Active Member 2012
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If the will is in bondage until God free it, then the salvation of man is wholy in the hands of God, and so the converstation of the bondage of the will cannot be separated from the doctrine of election, can it?
In the matchless gift of His Son, God has encircled the whole world with an atmosphere of grace as real as the air which circulates around the globe. All who choose to breathe this life-giving atmosphere will live and grow up to the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. (SC 68)
It seems to me that God is constantly at work in man, seeking to draw His attention to the cross, by which He effects the salvation of man. Man is saved as he responds to the cross, which he can do whenever he chooses, because the grace of God is always available, as real, and as accessible, as the earth we breath.
The Spirit is given as a regenerating agency, to make effectual the salvation wrought by the death of our Redeemer. The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. (AA 52)
Since the Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of man to the cross, man must constantly resist the Spirit in order to remain in an unconverted condition. Man is free at any time to respond to the work of the Spirit. The bondage of the will remains so only at the choice of man.
The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. (DA 176)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16395
07/02/06 04:27 PM
07/02/06 04:27 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
My understanding is that the highest power of man is the will. That is, the will is the governing power of the nature of man, bringing all other faculties under its sway.
It is not disagreed that the highest power of man is the will; but what is not realized is that the will cannot directly govern thoughts and actions. The will may be able to control them for a season but it cannot change them. Man cannot serve two masters.
The only faculty that the will directly governs is ‘Faith”. Faith is a faculty and not a “belief”. Here man is sovereign. But if faith has been placed in the flesh by the will, then the will cannot govern the thoughts and actions of the flesh contrary to where it has placed faith; seeing that the same flesh that one proposes to govern has been established as the source of its instruction. The way the will can govern the whole being is through “faith”.
One simple picture is given us:
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
What is that door? The door is faith. Faith is not something to drum up, but it is the faculty by which we choose our source. The will has complete sovereignty over faith. The will directs faith to open the door to whatever the will wills.
True, salvation is of God and not of man. The Lord knocks. If he wasn’t standing at the door and knocking there would be nothing to open the door to. If man will open the door of faith to God, he will come in and sup with him.
The Lord knocks at every door. The election then is for all.
Quote:
I don't even know what it would mean to say that the spirit governs the will, if this is the idea.
What does it mean to say that the spirit governs the will? Well simply put. If you have chosen to believe “something”; chosen to put on certain glasses over your eyes; then you will see accordingly, and you can do nothing about it, until you take those glasses off. No one else can take those glassess off for you.
Or, if we have opened the door of faith to the flesh and its senses, then our spirit will be carnal and carnality will govern our being. Regardless of how much controversial information we have in the mind, faith carries the day. On the other hand when we close the door of faith to the flesh and open it to Christ, then our spirit will be Christ’s and the government of our being will be accordingly.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16396
07/02/06 04:52 PM
07/02/06 04:52 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
Paul, in Romans 7; 14-25 establishes and makes that distinction by telling us that he served the law of God with his mind, but was still under the law of sin death because he did not yet discover the way of the spirit which he unveils in Romans 8.
I understand this to be the way of the Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of man. Paul is Romans 8 is contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, not the flesh with the spirit, is my understanding of Romans 8.
It is not possible to partake of the Spirit of The Lord in the mind, while our spirit is carnal(faith is in the flesh). The Spirit of the Lord must be received in our spirit before the mind will perceive the things of God.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16397
07/02/06 05:05 PM
07/02/06 05:05 PM
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TE: Since the Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of man to the cross, man must constantly resist the Spirit in order to remain in an unconverted condition. Man is free at any time to respond to the work of the Spirit. The bondage of the will remains so only at the choice of man.
MM: For most of us it is easy and natural to resist the wooing entreaties of the Holy Spirit. Satan is so busy blessing the unconverted with joy and peace that it is well nigh impossible for them to feel their God-given need of Jesus. They do not have to make a conscious choice to resist the loving pleadings of the Holy Spirit. Most are resting blissfully in the loving arms of Satan.
GC 589
Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}
Last edited by Mountain Man; 07/02/06 05:08 PM.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16398
07/02/06 05:06 PM
07/02/06 05:06 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Here is some scripture that speak of what I said earlier: The only faculty that the will directly governs is ‘Faith”. Faith is a faculty and not a “belief”. Here man is sovereign. But if faith has been placed in the flesh by the will, then the will cannot govern the thoughts and actions of the flesh contrary to where it has placed faith regardless of how much controversial information we have in the mind; seeing that the same flesh that one proposes to govern has been established as the source of its instruction. The way the will can govern the whole being is through “faith”. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. What is the “sin” that dwells in me? Fundamentally, it is the broken faith with God. Until faith is established with God, sin will have dominion. The way of the spirit is the way of faith.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16399
07/02/06 05:20 PM
07/02/06 05:20 PM
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Ontario
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Quote:
TE: Since the Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of man to the cross, man must constantly resist the Spirit in order to remain in an unconverted condition. Man is free at any time to respond to the work of the Spirit. The bondage of the will remains so only at the choice of man.
MM: For most of us it is easy and natural to resist the wooing entreaties of the Holy Spirit. Satan is so busy blessing the unconverted with joy and peace that it is well nigh impossible for them to feel their God-given need of Jesus. They do not have to make a conscious choice to resist the loving pleadings of the Holy Spirit. Most are resting blissfully in the loving arms of Satan.
MM, you have gone past the bounds of what Satan is capable of giving. Joy Peace and Love are not his to give. The lusts and pleasures of the world and the deceitfulness of riches, which he offers, do not provide these.
Isa 48:22 There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
I agree otherwise to the blinding aspect of Satan's work.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16400
07/02/06 06:37 PM
07/02/06 06:37 PM
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OP
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Here are a few more of Luther's 99 theses:
'We do not become righteous by doing what is righteous; but having become righteous we do what is righteous . . .
'Man is a greater enemy to the grace of God than he is to the law itself [!]. . .
'On the side of man there is nothing that goes before grace unless it be impotency and rebellion . . .
'From beginning to end, we are not masters of our actions but their slaves . . .
'He who is without God's grace sins continually even though he should neither rob, murder nor commit adultry. . . '
I can't comment much now. Tom's right that our understanding of the role of the will basically determines our view of the election.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16401
07/02/06 07:31 PM
07/02/06 07:31 PM
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Ontario
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That is right Mark.
That is what I have been posting.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16402
07/02/06 10:51 PM
07/02/06 10:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, it seems to me that we are saying the same thing. I have some trouble understanding your "language," so I'll put things how I understand them, and you can tell me if you agree with what I'm saying.
Satan told lies about God, insinuating that God does not have our best interests in heart, and cannot be trusted. By believing these lies, man was led into sin, and this unbelief has been entrenched in man. It is this false view of God which holds man in bondage to sin.
Another way of stating what happened in the garden is that man chose to use his own judgment of what is good, instead of sticking with God's. By replacing God's judgment with his own, he became under bondage. The same thing could be said in relation to justice or righteousness. (i.e. man has replaced God's justice, or righteousness, with his own).
So what man needs is a revelation of truth. This is what God has provided man through Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit communicates to the mind of the sinner the truth of God's character revealed in Jesus Christ, especially at the cross. The sinner chooses to respond to the truth, either yea or nay. If he responds nay, God will try again, until the sinner has so rejected the truth that he can no longer respond. If he responds yea, then God reveals more of His character, as light increasing to the noon day.
Another way of putting this is that God reveals the shortcomings of our paradigms by revealing the truth. Our paradigms our constantly challenged. The good news is that our paradigms always shortchange God's true goodness. By allowing God to reveal truth to us, and being willing to adjust our paradigms, we can see God with ever improving clarity, always better than what we thought before!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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